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OST Grens

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11 Apr 2019, 15:51 PM
#141
avatar of Dangerous-Cloth

Posts: 2066

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Apr 2019, 13:03 PMKatitof

Again, they were political, not military.
Just because you have an uniform and a gun does not make you a soldier.

Best equipment doesn't make you most elite either.


I think he is referring to the waffen ss. He seems to mistake the two for each other.
11 Apr 2019, 19:58 PM
#142
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 13803 | Subs: 7

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Apr 2019, 13:32 PMNaOCl


Does serving in war in a combat role make you a soldier?

This is rhetorical question or you want to be humiliated?
11 Apr 2019, 20:08 PM
#143
avatar of borobadger

Posts: 94

OST grens are fine. They are very good at long range
11 Apr 2019, 20:35 PM
#144
avatar of Lago

Posts: 2731

I had an idea.
How about bunkers didn´t cost manpower to build, but upgrading them cost manpower + munitions.


Then they'd be spammed as tank traps.
12 Apr 2019, 00:10 AM
#145
avatar of Corsin

Posts: 597

Back on topic?
12 Apr 2019, 05:58 AM
#146
avatar of DerbyHat

Posts: 1026 | Subs: 1

How about moving 10% accuracy from vet 2 to vet 0 and increasing cost by 10mp for grens? The vet 2 bonus would become 30% extra accuracy instead of 40% extra accuracy. This way they wouldn't get dumpstered as hard by penals/rifles/tommies early on, at the cost of fielding slightly later. (Could do something similar for cons with their RA vet?)

I'd also suggest changing bren cost to 60 munitions, limiting it to 1 per squad and buffing its performance accordingly (like 30%-40% more dps?). This would still allow them to outperform axis mainlines, but not by quite as big a margin.

Currently it's something like this (overall performance):
unvetted grens < unvetted tommies
vetted grens > vetted tommies
vetted grens << vetted + bolstered tommies
vetted lmg grens ≈ vetted + bolstered tommies
vetted lmg grens < vetted + bolstered tommies with 1 bren
vetted lmg grens <<< vetted + bolstered tommies with 2 brens

Unlike double brens, double BAR's cost more and don't have anywhere near as much long range dps, so grenadiers still have a range where they can trade effectively.
12 Apr 2019, 08:05 AM
#147
avatar of SeductiveCardbordBox

Posts: 546 | Subs: 1

How about we do the same comparison with Grens and Conscripts? Units that cost the same?

Or we factor in the additional cost of bolstering and weapon racks spread accross the four or so tommie squads an army will reasonably consist of. With all the extra resource and pop cap spent on british mainline you can bring out a support weapon or two for the tommies to be bad against.
12 Apr 2019, 08:54 AM
#148
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 13803 | Subs: 7

If you want grens to be scaling on pair with much more expensive infantries packed with resource heavy side grades, I hope you're ready to give up all of the potency of HMG42 to bash it down to maxim level.
12 Apr 2019, 12:42 PM
#149
avatar of SuperHansFan

Posts: 335

How about moving 10% accuracy from vet 2 to vet 0 and increasing cost by 10mp for grens? The vet 2 bonus would become 30% extra accuracy instead of 40% extra accuracy. This way they wouldn't get dumpstered as hard by penals/rifles/tommies early on, at the cost of fielding slightly later. (Could do something similar for cons with their RA vet?)

I'd also suggest changing bren cost to 60 munitions, limiting it to 1 per squad and buffing its performance accordingly (like 30%-40% more dps?). This would still allow them to outperform axis mainlines, but not by quite as big a margin.

Currently it's something like this (overall performance):
unvetted grens < unvetted tommies
vetted grens > vetted tommies
vetted grens << vetted + bolstered tommies
vetted lmg grens ≈ vetted + bolstered tommies
vetted lmg grens < vetted + bolstered tommies with 1 bren
vetted lmg grens <<< vetted + bolstered tommies with 2 brens

Unlike double brens, double BAR's cost more and don't have anywhere near as much long range dps, so grenadiers still have a range where they can trade effectively.


A quick look at DPS stats in and out of cover tell you you're wrong. Double BAR rifles blow Tommie brens out the water

Load up testmod if you think brens are so good, the upgrade gives you marginal extra dps at best. But it's biggest problem is unless you micro them into perfectly cover to cover they lose a chunk of DPS.

BARs you can just blob and kill everything, then you have good moving accuracy to boot. (Brens can't even shoot on the move and actually decrease close range DPS)
12 Apr 2019, 14:25 PM
#150
avatar of Bizrock

Posts: 196

How about moving 10% accuracy from vet 2 to vet 0 and increasing cost by 10mp for grens? The vet 2 bonus would become 30% extra accuracy instead of 40% extra accuracy. This way they wouldn't get dumpstered as hard by penals/rifles/tommies early on, at the cost of fielding slightly later. (Could do something similar for cons with their RA vet?)

I'd also suggest changing bren cost to 60 munitions, limiting it to 1 per squad and buffing its performance accordingly (like 30%-40% more dps?). This would still allow them to outperform axis mainlines, but not by quite as big a margin.

Currently it's something like this (overall performance):
unvetted grens < unvetted tommies
vetted grens > vetted tommies
vetted grens << vetted + bolstered tommies
vetted lmg grens ≈ vetted + bolstered tommies
vetted lmg grens < vetted + bolstered tommies with 1 bren
vetted lmg grens <<< vetted + bolstered tommies with 2 brens

Unlike double brens, double BAR's cost more and don't have anywhere near as much long range dps, so grenadiers still have a range where they can trade effectively.


Considering that Grens are 240MP and tommies 280MP, LMG42 and rifle grenades doesn't need tech and comes way sooner and can be equipped everywhere (in allied territory) anytime and 1 LMG drop less than 2 Brens, Don't know if you did a fair comparison even if I don't support the existence of Bolstered tommies. Lets not forgot that HMG42 > Vickers, PAK40 > 6pdr. You can't just compare units like that, that's not how the game works.
12 Apr 2019, 14:42 PM
#151
avatar of Lago

Posts: 2731

Grens are very good at what they're designed for: being cheap, high damage long-range cover combat infantry. Turning them into another jack-of-all-ranges Volksgrenadier squad isn't the answer.

The problem isn't Grens, it's that Ostheer's mid-close infantry (Panzergrenadiers) aren't fit for purpose.
12 Apr 2019, 15:05 PM
#152
avatar of Bizrock

Posts: 196

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Apr 2019, 14:42 PMLago
Grens are very good at what they're designed for: being cheap, high damage long-range cover combat infantry. Turning them into another jack-of-all-ranges Volksgrenadier squad isn't the answer.

The problem isn't Grens, it's that Ostheer's mid-close infantry (Panzergrenadiers) aren't fit for purpose.

Yes, you can't compare a versatile unit like grens that have a lot of utility with an AI focused unit like 2bren Tommies.
And the problem with balance is not the grens being weak, the problem is that the Volks are stupidly strong and efficient that looks like that grens are a bad unit.
12 Apr 2019, 15:54 PM
#153
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3256 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Apr 2019, 08:54 AMKatitof
If you want grens to be scaling on pair with much more expensive infantries packed with resource heavy side grades, I hope you're ready to give up all of the potency of HMG42 to bash it down to maxim level.

The issue lies in the ability to dump resources into the unit and dumpster the competition while the enemy is limited to a single upgrade. The problem is a design one. Why the brits even got a better version of American weapon racks with double arming AND the ability to bump their durability by 25% is simply nonsense. One maybe could have argued it when they were designed to bleed, but like 3h after launch that was changed so they bleed less than grens
12 Apr 2019, 15:56 PM
#154
avatar of Alphrum

Posts: 583

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Apr 2019, 15:05 PMBizrock

Yes, you can't compare a versatile unit like grens that have a lot of utility with an AI focused unit like 2bren Tommies.
And the problem with balance is not the grens being weak, the problem is that the Volks are stupidly strong and efficient that looks like that grens are a bad unit.


and whers ur evidence volks are op? this nonsense had already been proven wrong with facts.

4man Grens just have survivability issues, the unit itself is more or less fine, certain dual equipping allied units need to be toned down
12 Apr 2019, 16:39 PM
#155
avatar of DerbyHat

Posts: 1026 | Subs: 1

How about we do the same comparison with Grens and Conscripts? Units that cost the same?

Or we factor in the additional cost of bolstering and weapon racks spread accross the four or so tommie squads an army will reasonably consist of. With all the extra resource and pop cap spent on british mainline you can bring out a support weapon or two for the tommies to be bad against.


Sure, do mind that I will include extra costs associated with Grenadiers, namely the medic bunker and T1 structure. I assume the 2 mp lower reinforcement of Tommies makes up for the extra upkeep of 1 more pop with bolster. I will give two very basic army compositions and compare their costs, detracting starting resources:

Basic army composition without infantry upgrades:
Ostheer: T1 + 4 Grens + T2 + 2 222's + Medic Bunker
UKF: 3 Tommies + Platoon Command Post + 1 Sapper + AEC + 2 Medic upgrades

This gives both factions 4 mainline squads, 1 engineer unit, sufficient healing and comparable light vehicle power.

Here is a performance comparison at max range in green cover: https://imgur.com/a/mhvvpb8

1. Total cost without infantry upgrades on either side
Ostheer: 1460 manpower 60 munitions 110 fuel
UKF 1270 manpower 60 munitions 85 fuel

See images #1 and #2.

2. Total cost with UKF bolster + reinforcements and OST lmg42
Ostheer: 1460 manpower 300 munitions 110 fuel
UKF: 1532~ manpower 60 munitions 120 fuel

See images #3 and #4.

3. Total cost with UKF bolster + reinforcements and 1 bren and OST lmg42
Ostheer: 1460 manpower 300 munitions 110 fuel
UKF: 1682~ manpower 240 munitions 120 fuel

See images #5 and #6.

4. Total cost with UKF bolster + reinforcements and 2 brens and OST lmg42
Ostheer: 1460 manpower 300 munitions 110 fuel
UKF: 1682~ manpower 420 munitions 120 fuel

See images #7 and #8.

Mind that Grens without lmg get slightly better dps once they get closer and Tommies need yellow/green cover to prevent their -40% cooldown and -20% reload debuff.

My point is:
1. YES, fully upgraded Tommies should outperform LMG Grens, they're more expensive for that reason, BUT it shouldn't be by as big a margin as shown on image #8. A single stronger LMG would already make them very strong (see image #9 and #10 as example), while atleast allowing lmg grens to do some damage against them.
2. In the super early game, grens are really lackluster against Tommies, while not being that much cheaper, considering T1 costs 80 manpower. See suggestion in my previous post.

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Apr 2019, 08:54 AMKatitof
If you want grens to be scaling on pair with much more expensive infantries packed with resource heavy side grades, I hope you're ready to give up all of the potency of HMG42 to bash it down to maxim level.


I'm asking for a slighty lower power gap between unvetted grens and unvetted tommies/rifles/penals, at the cost of a 10 manpower higher upfront cost. Their performance once vetted would be the same as now. See my previous post. They often get overrun while in a superior position early on, in my own experience.



A quick look at DPS stats in and out of cover tell you you're wrong. Double BAR rifles blow Tommie brens out the water

Load up testmod if you think brens are so good, the upgrade gives you marginal extra dps at best. But it's biggest problem is unless you micro them into perfectly cover to cover they lose a chunk of DPS.

BARs you can just blob and kill everything, then you have good moving accuracy to boot. (Brens can't even shoot on the move and actually decrease close range DPS)


- Brens get exponentially more dps than BAR's at range 24 and up, Tommy rifles have far higher long range dps than Garands. Long range dps is the most important stat for mainlines IMO, altho rifles can also hold their own in that regard.
- The no-cover debuff is not that significant, considering it only affects cooldown and reload. Many top players tend to A-move their tommies once they get Brens.
- Please compare images #4, #6 and #8 to see the usefulness of Brens: https://imgur.com/a/mhvvpb8

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Apr 2019, 14:25 PMBizrock


Considering that Grens are 240MP and tommies 280MP, LMG42 and rifle grenades doesn't need tech and comes way sooner and can be equipped everywhere (in allied territory) anytime and 1 LMG drop less than 2 Brens, Don't know if you did a fair comparison even if I don't support the existence of Bolstered tommies. Lets not forgot that HMG42 > Vickers, PAK40 > 6pdr. You can't just compare units like that, that's not how the game works.


- Tommies don't need an 80mp tech structure, have the early initiative by being your first squad (be it for 90 less starting mp), can build sandbags and can get cost effective healing without a 150 mp bunker, that allows you to heal everywhere anytime.
- Agreed that HMG42 is a better suppression tool than the Vickers, but with worse infantry in support.
- UKF 6 pounder is a carbon copy of the PAK40 with 50% bonus accuracy against light vehicles, but without TWP. Can't call it worse.
12 Apr 2019, 17:20 PM
#156
avatar of WingZero

Posts: 1395

People expect Grens to perform like VGs, low bleed and mid/close range attack.
12 Apr 2019, 19:14 PM
#157
avatar of Aarotron

Posts: 345

Imo grens mostly need small rate of fire buff. In my experience they get heavily outgunned when unupgraded vs unupgraded allied rifles. Its just my experience and might be wrong
15 Apr 2019, 06:02 AM
#158
avatar of NaOCl

Posts: 269

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Apr 2019, 19:58 PMKatitof

This is rhetorical question or you want to be humiliated?


Both.

The Waffen SS were the soldiers of the NSDAP. Hence the "waffen" part.

Although him saying OKW is the SS is incorrect. You're incorrect about the SS not serving on the frontlines. They must definitely had a large combat role.
15 Apr 2019, 07:09 AM
#159
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 13803 | Subs: 7

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Apr 2019, 06:02 AMNaOCl


Both.

The Waffen SS were the soldiers of the NSDAP. Hence the "waffen" part.

Although him saying OKW is the SS is incorrect. You're incorrect about the SS not serving on the frontlines. They must definitely had a large combat role.

That's not my point, my point is, you don't need to be soldier to serve on frontline/participate in combat.
Partisans anyone?

Regardless, no ss will ever appear in any game, because its political, not military force, doesn't matter what they used or what they did, they still origin from political source, not military.
15 Apr 2019, 09:12 AM
#160
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6444 | Subs: 1

Bolt action is tabletop wargame where Waffen SS are available.

https://www.warandpeacegames.com.au/Bolt_Action_1500pts_German_Waffen_SS_Starter_Arm_p/402612101.htm

In addition NKVD started in police role but odes appear in wargames.
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