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OST Grens

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6 Apr 2019, 05:43 AM
#101
avatar of Corsin

Posts: 597



I dunno what Tourney's you are watching, tell which ones, so I can go find these replays being casted.


I mean look at all tourney finals. where they can pick the factions, First pick, always picks allies. And they usually win as them.

If they do tourneys with axis vs axis etc, like star-craft. then you'll notice the factions people ALWAYS pick.

I mean this is literally your playercard: https://gyazo.com/e28022b4a9e0161966643758a273f313

So im not surprised in any way why you have NO CLUE as to balance. Go get a 30 win streak as Axis, then talk to me. (and yeah i once had a 30 win streak as russians, back when Relic listened to fanboi's like yourself and made partisans immortal). Just to prove a point.
6 Apr 2019, 06:00 AM
#102
avatar of Dangerous-Cloth

Posts: 2066

If anything, pgrens could use a 5th man.
6 Apr 2019, 21:57 PM
#103
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 419

If anything, pgrens could use a 5th man.


If anything ost does not need to become more as okw.

6 Apr 2019, 22:00 PM
#104
avatar of LoopDloop

Posts: 2737

If anything, pgrens could use a 5th man.

Pgrens aren't supposed to be rangers. That's why they're 4 men and that's the only reason they're balanced.
7 Apr 2019, 10:12 AM
#105
avatar of Widerstreit

Posts: 949

I think there are some things, but 5th men for Grens isnt one of it.

My ideas.

1. Give UKF same weapon-upgrade system as OST. Tommies and Sappeurs (Pios) can upgrade 2xPiat or 1xBren.

That will be the end of double Bren-blobbs.

The Vickers-K should be changed to an extra upgrade ignoring the Brens limit of 1x. E.g. you need the truck to upgrade neerby units in its aura, no drop-item.

That would be the end of unbalancing team-play.

2. Buffing the Ostwind would be a solution.
- we can give it modifided stats of OKW base, e.g. remove its suppression and nerf the Vet. Over all, more DPS and Pen.
- OKW Ostwind could get a suppression ability.

3. Penals reduced to 5 men instead of 6 men. To bring theim in line.

4. Give US M8 howitzer same weapon stats as StuG E. Less shell-speed, less accuracy, less pen, less DPS but more AOE. Maybe less range as StuG E because of turret and option to build normal howitzer.


7 Apr 2019, 13:13 PM
#106
avatar of Pereat

Posts: 51

I think there are some things, but 5th men for Grens isnt one of it.

My ideas.

1. Give UKF same weapon-upgrade system as OST. Tommies and Sappeurs (Pios) can upgrade 2xPiat or 1xBren.




I agree on giving UKF free nades and weapon racks upgrade with platoon unlock for the cost of sacrificing one weapon slot. That would bring them closer to the versatility of axis inf. :)
7 Apr 2019, 13:44 PM
#107
avatar of Kharn

Posts: 264

jump backJump back to quoted post7 Apr 2019, 13:13 PMPereat


I agree on giving UKF free nades and weapon racks upgrade with platoon unlock for the cost of sacrificing one weapon slot. That would bring them closer to the versatility of axis inf. :)


So lets get this straight:

British Unlocks for what you describe:

Tier Upgrade which requires nobody present at base is...

30 fuel 180 manpower = Tier 1
10 fuel 100 manpower = Grenades
15 fuel 150 manpower = Guns (on any squad not just grenadiers)
35 fuel 150 manpower = 5th man on the squad
45 munitions = 1 bren ( on any squad of your choosing )

I'm going to leave the 5th man out, because that's obviously late tier and Grens don't get access to it.

Total cost is 55 fuel and 430 manpower.

Now lets look at OST:
10 fuel 80 manpower: Tier 1, you know, so you can build more than a pio or an mg
40 fuel 100 manpower: Tier 2 research
20 fuel 200 manpower: Tier 2 building, plus send that pio home to go make it
60 munitions = 1 LMG on a grenadier only

Total cost is 70 fuel and 380 manpower

Don't forget both UKF/OST infantry love fighting in long range fights in cover. But IS can build their own cover, OST needs the pio to do that for them.
7 Apr 2019, 14:02 PM
#108
avatar of SuperHansFan

Posts: 347

jump backJump back to quoted post7 Apr 2019, 13:44 PMKharn


So lets get this straight:

British Unlocks for what you describe:

Tier Upgrade which requires nobody present at base is...

30 fuel 180 manpower = Tier 1
10 fuel 100 manpower = Grenades
15 fuel 150 manpower = Guns (on any squad not just grenadiers)
35 fuel 150 manpower = 5th man on the squad
45 munitions = 1 bren ( on any squad of your choosing )

I'm going to leave the 5th man out, because that's obviously late tier and Grens don't get access to it.

Total cost is 55 fuel and 430 manpower.

Now lets look at OST:
10 fuel 80 manpower: Tier 1, you know, so you can build more than a pio or an mg
40 fuel 100 manpower: Tier 2 research
20 fuel 200 manpower: Tier 2 building, plus send that pio home to go make it
60 munitions = 1 LMG on a grenadier only

Total cost is 70 fuel and 380 manpower

Don't forget both UKF/OST infantry love fighting in long range fights in cover. But IS can build their own cover, OST needs the pio to do that for them.


How is it a "total cost" at all if you ignore the most expensive and most commonly picked upgrade (five man). You're just cherry picking to suit your argument at that point.




7 Apr 2019, 14:06 PM
#109
avatar of Kharn

Posts: 264



How is it a "total cost" at all if you ignore the most expensive and most commonly picked upgrade (five man). You're just cherry picking to suit your argument at that point.






SuperHansFan,

Because half of the mentions in this thread are to give OST a 5th man? So how is this cherry picking when I'm directly discussing the most mentioned topic in this thread?

I'm sorry when you pick allies you can click other buttons or ignore them to tech faster. Nobodies forcing you to go 5 man, Brens, Nades.

But OST has to build all of that shit you see to be competitive for sure. You can ignore grenades on tommies for sure, you can't ignore Brens and you can ignore 5 man, by why would you? Reason being 5 guys stick out of sandbags all the time but vs indirect fire it's incredibly helpful. Then when you move onto team games, it's even better given indirect fire is meta for 3's and 4's
7 Apr 2019, 14:08 PM
#110
avatar of Balanced_Gamer

Posts: 783

Fixing both Pzgrens and Ostwind would most certainly help boost/solve the issues that they are facing. Pzgrens are costy, price should be decreased also due to the lack of utility. They should cost like 300 manpower at least. Also price compensation for dropping like flies. Although vet compensate later on but it takes a while.

It would be cool if Pzgrens could get flamethrower as an upgrade option AI focused, but that is just an idea. Not neccessary but would be a nice AI addition. Might be too strong an option. Maybe it is a no go.

Ostwind is underperforming, needs to be more accurate, deal more damage or have bigger AOE. Currently it feels like the worst AI vehicle there is. It relies heavily on unit support in comparison to every other AI medium tank vehicle. It needs to be improved.

Grens do not need fixing I believe, just the 2 above mentioned.

Then Osteehr will be fixed.

OKW needs to be looked over, some units being versatile and some unit underperforming. Veterancy issues, support weapons needs some adjustments I believe (adjustments meaning fixes and slight improvements). It needs to be looked over. It has some problems. I think that is what it needs.

I explained what changes should be made on Volks on https://www.coh2.org/topic/88296/revamp-volksgrenadiers-terms-of-versatility-okw. Revamp OKW seems necessary as some perform better and worse than it should.
7 Apr 2019, 14:45 PM
#111
avatar of Pereat

Posts: 51

jump backJump back to quoted post7 Apr 2019, 13:44 PMKharn


So lets get this straight: <...>


Total cost is 55 fuel and 430 manpower.

Now lets look at OST:
10 fuel 80 manpower: Tier 1, you know, so you can build more than a pio or an mg
40 fuel 100 manpower: Tier 2 research
20 fuel 200 manpower: Tier 2 building, plus send that pio home to go make it
60 munitions = 1 LMG on a grenadier only

Total cost is 70 fuel and 380 manpower



Don't know why you factor in t2 building. AFAIK nades and upgrades come free with T2 research.

So its 430mp 55 fuel for UKF vs 180mp and 50fuel for ost. Not accounting for 280 vs 240 mp on the unit itself.

After all this, 60 muni will make the gren outperform IS in most every situation. Beating single bren (45muni) slightly and finally loosing to double bren (at 90 muni).

Not saying the grens are better, but they are cheaper both in price and in tech with a huge power spike for little to no extra cost. They have snares on top of that and a nade with no timer (no clue why that is in the game). If someone suggest to make the IS tech more similar to grens - they should account for all the inherent bonuses as well.
7 Apr 2019, 14:58 PM
#112
avatar of LoopDloop

Posts: 2737

jump backJump back to quoted post7 Apr 2019, 13:44 PMKharn


So lets get this straight:

British Unlocks for what you describe:

Tier Upgrade which requires nobody present at base is...

30 fuel 180 manpower = Tier 1
10 fuel 100 manpower = Grenades
15 fuel 150 manpower = Guns (on any squad not just grenadiers)
35 fuel 150 manpower = 5th man on the squad
45 munitions = 1 bren ( on any squad of your choosing )

I'm going to leave the 5th man out, because that's obviously late tier and Grens don't get access to it.

Total cost is 55 fuel and 430 manpower.

Now lets look at OST:
10 fuel 80 manpower: Tier 1, you know, so you can build more than a pio or an mg
40 fuel 100 manpower: Tier 2 research
20 fuel 200 manpower: Tier 2 building, plus send that pio home to go make it
60 munitions = 1 LMG on a grenadier only

Total cost is 70 fuel and 380 manpower

Don't forget both UKF/OST infantry love fighting in long range fights in cover. But IS can build their own cover, OST needs the pio to do that for them.

Yeah but you're ignoring the fact that sections get no snares, are absolutely terrible on the move, and the fact that 1 bren is worse than an lmg42. Brens are also pretty dependent on the cover bonus IIRC. Ost also has better team weapons and you can hardcounter brits with double mortar since they have literally no answer to that crap. Brits also have no other combat infantry than sections nondoctrinally. So it's not all as bad as you make it look.

Fixing both Pzgrens and Ostwind would most certainly help boost/solve the issues that they are facing. Pzgrens are costy, price should be decreased also due to the lack of utility. They should cost like 300 manpower at least. Also price compensation for dropping like flies. Although vet compensate later on but it takes a while.

It would be cool if Pzgrens could get flamethrower as an upgrade option AI focused, but that is just an idea. Not neccessary but would be a nice AI addition. Might be too strong an option. Maybe it is a no go.

Ostwind is underperforming, needs to be more accurate, deal more damage or have bigger AOE. Currently it feels like the worst AI vehicle there is. It relies heavily on unit support in comparison to every other AI medium tank vehicle. It needs to be improved.

Grens do not need fixing I believe, just the 2 above mentioned.

Then Osteehr will be fixed.

OKW needs to be looked over, some units being versatile and some unit underperforming. Veterancy issues, support weapons needs some adjustments I believe (adjustments meaning fixes and slight improvements). It needs to be looked over. It has some problems. I think that is what it needs.

I explained what changes should be made on Volks on https://www.coh2.org/topic/88296/revamp-volksgrenadiers-terms-of-versatility-okw. Revamp OKW seems necessary as some perform better and worse than it should.

Pzgrens at 300mp? 20mp more than riflemen and the same as penals with that kind of dps? No thanks. I think a better (more balanced) change would be bringing their reinforce cost down to like 32, same as rangers. That makes a lot more sense to me and would help ostheer players keep their pzgrens on the field but wouldn't make them as easy/attractive to spam as being 300mp would.

Ostwind definitely needs some buffs. I would say scatter would be the best option (that would make it more accurate against infantry) since it would make the ostwind a lot more reliable without making it absolutely rape infantry hopefully.
7 Apr 2019, 15:19 PM
#113
avatar of Widerstreit

Posts: 949

That has to be tested in a small mod. Only costs- and DPS-comparision isn't how to balance a game. Nearly all huge mods (e.g. Wickinger) are banalced by testing, baised on an idea.


I think changing the tech-system of weapons are nearly perfect. Maybe some tech-time changes and +/- price adjustment.




Also important is the Bofors-Question (too much DPS, too worse impact).
-> Better changes it's weapon-profile with OKW base or Ostwind. Would be a rebalancer, less fu*ks but better use-ability.

M8A1 Howitzer Motor Carriage also is a problematic unit. Way too much accureacy, broken weapon-profile.
-> You can't blobb Brummbärs (too much micro-needed) but you can blobb M8s.




Beside, StuG E has way too mach structure-damage. Balance that. ^^
7 Apr 2019, 15:51 PM
#114
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 1811

I say just split the vet bonuses more evenly. Rather than making grens wait until vet3 for their RA bonus, cut the bonus in half and give one half at vet 2, the other at vet 3

In coh3 i hope veterancy is more like this rather than large chunks of bonuses all at once
7 Apr 2019, 19:49 PM
#115
avatar of SuperHansFan

Posts: 347

The thing with brens is they require more micro than MG42 or bars. Otherwise you're paying more for less effectiveness

If you don't believe me rock up testmod, look at how brens and MG42 fare out of cover, then even in cover double brens only slightly beat MG42 gren DPS wise
7 Apr 2019, 19:55 PM
#116
avatar of Lago

Posts: 2872

Brens are throughly meh, but UKF doesn't rely on them when Infantry Sections are already so strong without upgrades.
7 Apr 2019, 23:42 PM
#117
avatar of porkloin

Posts: 131

If there is a problem with Grens it's the 'neither hot nor cold' approach to compensating for the four man squad. By that I mean they have both an RA boost, and a damage boost that makes them tactically balanced, but hamstrung in a strategic sense. Damage-wise they can't wipe squads, or pose a serious enough threat to scare off cheeky capping squads. Defense-wise they don't have the health pool to cap points under fire, capitalize on won fights(i.e. even if you routed another squad you still have to retreat and reinforce anyways instead of capping) shield crew weapons, or delay advances.

Imo grens should be superior in either RA, or damage, but not both. I'd prefer they specialize in damage as it fits the character of an army that's doing it's best to avoid attrition warfare. I think raising the RA to something like .97 and give them a G43 by default would be best. Reducing damage and reducing the RA would work too in a game balance sense, but I don't like the move away from historical character too much.

e: added some points for clarity
8 Apr 2019, 13:01 PM
#118
avatar of Balanced_Gamer

Posts: 783

Simple fix

Give Grens the ability to upgrade to getting 2 MG42 when you research tier 2 or tier 3.

OR

Give Grens also with MG42, G43 upgrade also (which is less stronger than 2 MG42).

Only when researched the Tier 2 or Tier 3


Give them firepower instead if nobody agrees on giving them 5 man or giving Pzgrens a cheaper price (which is currently a terrible price 340, should be 300-320 manpower instead).
8 Apr 2019, 15:21 PM
#119
avatar of WingZero

Posts: 1426

How about giving Grens the ability to build sandbags just like VGs?
8 Apr 2019, 15:22 PM
#120
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6700 | Subs: 1

How about giving Grens the ability to build sandbags just like VGs?

Actually sandbags should be removed from the majority of mainline infatry.

Then people would have reason to build other unit also.
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