(may preview) jackson sight buff and veterancy bonus

The problem with comparing the jackson to the JP4 is the factions are different, OKW being better than USF. As it currently stands, Jacksons are really glass cannons so germans don't really have trouble killing them. Pac40s, Shrek blobs, as well as Panthers or P4s can easily take them down (P4s being really good because of their cheap cost and rate of fire). As the game progresses, USF has harder time vs inf so it is hard to defend the jackson. I can't remember the last time I bought a jackson because of these reasons. The only time I would buy one is to counter a tiger or KT. There is no problem with the buff.

However, the JP4 does need a nerf. It is extremely hard to kill them BECAUSE THEY CAN TURN INVISIBLE!!! No tank should be able to turn invisible tbh. I have no clue why this is still in the game.

Jackson is glass cannon, takes 3 hits from panther to kill, same speed as panther. As such the LOS increase is fine as its under the max range of panther.
Just reduce the vet 2 sight vet bonus and its fixed

The problem with comparing the jackson to the JP4 is the factions are different, OKW being better than USF. As it currently stands, Jacksons are really glass cannons so germans don't really have trouble killing them. Pac40s, Shrek blobs, as well as Panthers or P4s can easily take them down (P4s being really good because of their cheap cost and rate of fire). As the game progresses, USF has harder time vs inf so it is hard to defend the jackson. I can't remember the last time I bought a jackson because of these reasons. The only time I would buy one is to counter a tiger or KT. There is no problem with the buff.

However, the JP4 does need a nerf. It is extremely hard to kill them BECAUSE THEY CAN TURN INVISIBLE!!! No tank should be able to turn invisible tbh. I have no clue why this is still in the game.

Well if you remove inv what do you give it as currently no one use them panther being only 50 more fuel

Well if you remove inv what do you give it as currently no one use them panther being only 50 more fuel

It has a lot of potential abilities. You could give it the armor detection ability from stormtrooper or some other type of vision ability.

Yes Axis doesn't need to destroy any tanks

Btw, Heavy Tanks:
Axis - 6 (KT, JT, Sturm, Tiger, Ele, TA)
Allies - 9 (Pershing, ISU, IS2, KV1, KV2, KV8, Churchill, Croc, AVRE)

Remove all kv tanks and avre from this list, they don't deserve to be mentioned.

Its JP problem, need say thanks for our balance guys. Fix JP.

I think his point is that most factions have some kind of Recon that mitigates any LOS limits that their TDs might have, ergo a Vet 2 self-spotting Jackson isn't a big deal.

ditto

OP is theorycrafting about a potentially OP vet bonus, well there are already a bunch of OP stuff sight wise like I listed and the vet 2 Jackson will have absolutely nothing on them

Well if you remove inv what do you give it as currently no one use them panther being only 50 more fuel

On the topic of jagdpanzers and the free predator ability:

JP's vet much faster and shell out more DPS, they're not just cheaper. Vet5+camo allows you to basically snipe Fireflies/Jacksons before they can even react. Getting a panther to vet5 is a much harder job.

swap the camo for mobility and I think it would still see the same use.

I for one welcome this change to the Jackson, hell the M10 should have it too (remove crush though). They're open top tank destroyers, the entire purpose of the open top was for better sight. The Jackson is lightly armour and has sub-standard health, rather than being forced to micro it alongside an M20, I much prefer it being able to stand on it's own a bit.

Alternative solutions to constant sight though, could be:

Spotting Scope functionality: the extended sight is only active when the vehicle is not moving. I actually prefer this one over flat out extending the sight as Relic has done currently.

Armoured Vehicle Detection: It can only 'spot' and shoot Vehicles or Tanks, and anything else in the fog will remain concealed.

But still, extended sight is still better than not, even if it is universal.

I think that both SU85 and Jackson can self-spot because their factions lack a proper scout unit. Wehr/Brits have a stealthy sniper, while OKW has a legitimate maphack for 200MP/5F- USF can only spot for Jackson with units that usually get two shooted by king/tiger and other Axis lategame stuff

I think that both SU85 and Jackson can self-spot because their factions lack a proper scout unit.

T70 and M20. I mean, you could argue the M20 isn't a great scout, but then you have the Stuart as well.

But the T70 is totally a scout unit. I mean, Recon mode and everything.

T70 and M20. I mean, you could argue the M20 isn't a great scout, but then you have the Stuart as well.

The Stuart isn't a scouting unit, unless they've changed in the past couple months.

It has a lot of potential abilities. You could give it the armor detection ability from stormtrooper or some other type of vision ability.

They could just not make Cautious Movement = Phase Shift where it can't be hit by attack-ground while active and be turned out when getting attacked

Also, the Jp4 doesnt 3 shot T3 Ostheer vehicles

Neither does the M36. It does 200 damage per shot, and since most medium vehicles have 640 health it takes 4 shots to kill any T3 ost vehicles except the StuG G, which has 560 HP (Jackson has 480)

Jackson is one of the most micro intensive tanks. I appreciate the change. USF has been to weak in the heavy AT department for too long.
Kinda funny how a simple sight change triggers the Wehraboos to argue how awesome the Jackson is... one might think it's as good as a Panther.

Yes Axis doesn't need to destroy any tanks

Btw, Heavy Tanks:
Axis - 6 (KT, JT, Sturm, Tiger, Ele, TA)
Allies - 9 (Pershing, ISU, IS2, KV1, KV2, KV8, Churchill, Croc, AVRE)

Lol, lets face which units really have such a high frontal armor that you need high penetration TDs like Jackson if you really want to fight them frontally and can't flank. The numbers are frontal armor:

Axis - 7: Kt 375, JT 525, Tiger 300, Ele 400, Tiger Ace 300, Panther 320 (Okw + Ost), Command Panther 320
Allied - 6: Pershing 300, ISU 310, IS2 375, KV1 270, KV2 300, Comet 290

But which of this tanks are really used? Which are spotted not that often because they are bs or bound only to one or two doctrines that aren't part of the actual meta? The numbers alone say nothing.

First to kick out of the list are KV1 + KV2, they are just a fuel sink and desperately deserve a buff. Most common sight is definitely Panther, it is non-doctrinal for both axis factions and one of the best tanks in this game. Panther is followed up probably by Kingtiger and Comet, both are non-doctrinal and decent. Most common sight off all the remaining doctrinal tanks is probably normal Tiger, just because it is in many Ostheer commanders that are still part of meta and it is a force to reckon with.

This is not a whining post about germans having too much tanks with high frontal armor. I'm okay with that and absolutely enjoy playing KT and JT myself especially in the bigger game modes. But that post totally disregards actual game stats and mechanics, so I had to clear this up.

Yes Axis doesn't need to destroy any tanks

Btw, Heavy Tanks:
Axis - 6 (KT, JT, Sturm, Tiger, Ele, TA)
Allies - 9 (Pershing, ISU, IS2, KV1, KV2, KV8, Churchill, Croc, AVRE)

There are 3 allied factions and 2 axis. That's 3 average per faction. Also, number of heavy tank options is not equal to number deployed.

Edit, sorry, didn't read entire thread. My response is redundant with general Gawain's

1. USF is the only faction in the game whose stock does not contain a reliable recon unit.

Since they have to rely on glass-cannon TD for their late-game, they very badly need a recon unit.

Go over their unit roster now, and tell me which unit provides decent sight range. The only two options are:
- m20: 50 range (Vet0), 60 range (Vet1)
- Stuart: 35 range (Vet0), 43 range (Vet1), 56 range (Vet3)
- (for comparison, infantry has sight range 35, and Panzerschrecks have gun range 35)

The M20 has 240 HP (equal to the old 222). The Stuart has 400 HP (the Jackson has 480 HP), and it is not very easy to vet a Stuart in the lategame, if you have to replace them.

(please don't come up with "Major recon!!1!1!")

2. Jackson needed that sight bonus at Vet0 (if only to avoid infantry when they chase the big cats).

However, even with 45 sight range, you still something else to screen for your jackson, when you want to kill:
- Panthers (gun range: 50)
- (King) Tigers: (gun range: 45)

3. Self-spotting TDs is not a good idea (for the same reasons that omni-potent Volks is not a good idea either).

I completely agree with Firesparks on this one. However, for the reasons outlined in #1 and #2, I am more in favour of toning down the Vet2 bonus. This is because of reasons #1 and #2, and also the fact if you make a single mistake with the Jacksons, they are dead (and flop goes their Vet).

An alternative would be to change the Vet2 bonus to +10% (for a grand total 50 sight range at Vet2).

Command Panther - 55sight.
Vet 2 JPIV - 60 sight.

Just saying...

I don't think you can use either of these units Vet/Non-Vet bonuses as a baseline for a balance conversation. This is for the same reasons you can't use the vet bonuses of USF Riflemen Veterancy as the baseline. They are all... special.

1. USF is the only faction in the game whose stock does not contain a reliable recon unit.

Since they have to rely on glass-cannon TD for their late-game, they very badly need a recon unit.

Go over their unit roster now, and tell me which unit provides decent sight range. The only two options are:
- m20: 50 range (Vet0), 60 range (Vet1)
- Stuart: 35 range (Vet0), 43 range (Vet1), 56 range (Vet3)
- (for comparison, infantry has sight range 35, and Panzerschrecks have gun range 35)

The M20 has 240 HP (equal to the old 222). The Stuart has 400 HP (the Jackson has 480 HP), and it is not very easy to vet a Stuart in the lategame, if you have to replace them.

(please don't come up with "Major recon!!1!1!")

2. Jackson needed that sight bonus at Vet0 (if only to avoid infantry when they chase the big cats).

However, even with 45 sight range, you still something else to screen for your jackson, when you want to kill:
- Panthers (gun range: 50)
- (King) Tigers: (gun range: 45)

3. Self-spotting TDs is not a good idea (for the same reasons that omni-potent Volks is not a good idea either).

I completely agree with Firesparks on this one. However, for the reasons outlined in #1 and #2, I am more in favour of toning down the Vet2 bonus. This is because of reasons #1 and #2, and also the fact if you make a single mistake with the Jacksons, they are dead (and flop goes their Vet).

An alternative would be to change the Vet2 bonus to +10% (for a grand total 50 sight range at Vet2).



I don't think you can use either of these units Vet/Non-Vet bonuses as a baseline for a balance conversation. This is for the same reasons you can't use the vet bonuses of USF Riflemen Veterancy as the baseline. They are all... special.

Actually, there is a third option. In fact, it has almost 80 sight range at vet 3! I mean, it's got so much sight range, how could it possibly be bad?

oh wait it's the m8 greyhound

(And yes, I know you were only talking about stock units, just trying to make a joke, but relic seems to have beat me to that)

whatever you guys say man, until USF can have a non doctrinal sherman jumbo with 800hp, 320 frontal armour, with a 76mm gun; soviets with a kv85 with 800hp, 320 front armour and a 85mm gun they need this little buff.

soviets and USF especially, do not have non doctrinal heavy armour to probe at enemy lines and infantry will be a constant bleed if used that way.

while panthers are excellent at this job, since they can bounce most AT gun shots, AT nades and AT rifles with repairs being free and fast with sturmpios, they risk little to nothing when scouting enemy lines.

however though, damage nerf to 160 is well justified.

ditto

OP is theorycrafting about a potentially OP vet bonus, well there are already a bunch of OP stuff sight wise like I listed and the vet 2 Jackson will have absolutely nothing on them



On the topic of jagdpanzers and the free predator ability:

JP's vet much faster and shell out more DPS, they're not just cheaper. Vet5+camo allows you to basically snipe Fireflies/Jacksons before they can even react. Getting a panther to vet5 is a much harder job.

swap the camo for mobility and I think it would still see the same use.

If it has mobility why not take panther instead ?
Let it cost 100 and then we are talking