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russian armor

T-34 needs a buff

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13 Jun 2015, 22:26 PM
#361
14 Jun 2015, 00:29 AM
#362
avatar of daspoulos

Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1

Permanently Banned
Performance is fine. Price is not. The cheapest medium tank will be the worst medium. Plain and simple. Fucking deal with it. t34s are not panzer4s, while you guys might not care about a little authenticity when it comes to buffing allied units, relic does.

T34s are meant to be weak cheap mediums like they were. So yeah deal with it, no overbuffed/over exaggerated t34/76 performance. 280mp, 80-85 fuel.
14 Jun 2015, 01:07 AM
#363
avatar of Zyllen

Posts: 665


The T34/76, as I showed above, is not up to the task. It is too cost inefficient at 100fu and with such a shitty DPS. 4 Shermans have far more DPS than 4 T34/76s. In fact, it takes 10 Shermans (110fu) before you get a free T34/76 (100fu), assuming no popcap, and the Shermans are literally better in every way.


yes a staggering 11.3 % damage difference between the sherman and the t-34 (9.9% at long range btw) . You obviously believe wish to believe the t-34 is bad. fine by me. But i rather wait until 27th and seen how the new patch will work out.


The war of wrath ^

indeed but now its time for the war of sloth and im going to bed . i will wake up again when the patch notes are out
14 Jun 2015, 01:36 AM
#364
avatar of comm_ash
Patrion 14

Posts: 1132 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Jun 2015, 01:07 AMZyllen


yes a staggering 11.3 % damage difference between the sherman and the t-34 (9.9% at long range btw) . You obviously believe wish to believe the t-34 is bad. fine by me. But i rather wait until 27th and seen how the new patch will work out.


The 11% is quite large, especially when you take into account that Sherman AP rounds are more effective vs. infantry than the t34/76. The Sherman and p4 are literally better in every way for not much more. You still haven't told me why the t34/76 is fairly priced.
14 Jun 2015, 01:37 AM
#365
avatar of EffenNewbie

Posts: 1257

Performance is fine. Price is not. The cheapest medium tank will be the worst medium. Plain and simple. Fucking deal with it. t34s are not panzer4s, while you guys might not care about a little authenticity when it comes to buffing allied units, relic does.

T34s are meant to be weak cheap mediums like they were. So yeah deal with it, no overbuffed/over exaggerated t34/76 performance. 280mp, 80-85 fuel.


If Relic cares about authenticity, explain Pak 43's shooting through buildings or IR halftracks seeing through everything.
14 Jun 2015, 01:41 AM
#366
avatar of Tatatala

Posts: 589

Ho-ly shit. Just when Alex was getting all chill, and worth reading, a long comes Zyllen, shit poster of the 1st degree.

Axis fan bois are the Sith confirmed. When one drops, another takes his place. Always two there are.

We should erect a memorial wall for the all the fallen sith lords axis fanboys that have come and gone.

Welp, here is to another 6 months of reading shit poster extraordinaire.
14 Jun 2015, 01:47 AM
#367
avatar of daspoulos

Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1

Permanently Banned


If Relic cares about authenticity, explain Pak 43's shooting through buildings or IR halftracks seeing through everything.
Authenticity when it can be helped. In the t34s situation it can be helped. In the pak43 and infrared halftrack no.

Pak43 as it stands if it cant pen buildings then its worthless. If you give it 100-120 range instead it becomes broken in its own way. 70 range on a stationary gun that gets 1 shotted by any arty that can't shoot through buildings is bad.

Now if it had a cruciform mount, some more gun HP, and maybe 80 range then it shouldn't have to pen buildings.

IR halftrack, maybe if there were nachtjager gear equipment on panthers and such and it provided buffs to that as well as IR stg obers, as well as spotting units that are not hiding behind shot blocker but are instead just further away in the open in front of its IR search beam. But thats more due to the game not containing the equipment and units an IR halftrack Uhu would normally support in real life. So instead they give it an exaggerated gimmick that tries to make sense in one area, but not the others simply because the game doesn't contain what units it should support to the extent of making it its own unit.

Not saying everything needs to be 100% realistic, but I feel that units in game should reflect their real life roles as much as possible as long as its balanced.

Exaggerating a units performance and cost when otherwise a better form of it exists that also happens to satisfy some authenticity is a big plus. In the t34/76's case this exists.
14 Jun 2015, 03:49 AM
#368
avatar of skemshead

Posts: 579



You are going in circles. First you claim that the P4 vs. T34/76 matchup isn't as skewed as I made it out to be, then when I disprove you, you state pricing. Thats not an argument, that is coming up with excuses.

The P4 can absolutely beat the T34/76 1v1. However, there is no reason for the P4 to be able to not only beat the T34/76 in a 1v1 engagement, yet also be able to get ALOT better with veterancy, and also come in the same numbers as the T34/76 for as long as it does (5v4 is still in the P4s favor, in terms of AI and AT). It would be fine if the soviets were able to reasonably get a TD out with T3, and tech up to a true T4 with good, specialist units, like the ostheer can, but currently soviet T3 < Ostheer T3, and Soviet T4 = Ost T3.

This leads to a game where the stock soviets at their latest point in the game, are worse than both German factions in every way. That is not Asymmetrical design, that is plain BAD DESIGN. If you expect the callin meta to ever be fixed, it HAS to come with a fix to the core soviet lategame, because currently the core soviets are completely hardcountered by a single Pak43/ELE/JT, since they have no armor capable of supporting their infantry against heavy TDs. (don't expect cons/penals to do shit lategame without armor support to kill axis long range lmgs squads), not to mention the fact that the low DPS zis is only enough to scare away armor, not kill it.

Just because Ostheer T3 is as rare as Soviet T3 is no reason to claim balance. Everyone plays the game to win at high skill levels, and thus go for callins, to fight Soviet callins. However, let us not forget that non-callin-meta Ostheer is perfectly viable. This is why we see so many strategies based around CAS doctrine that rely on infantry with maybe 1 tank work perfectly fine.

Soviet T3 needs to have some advantage over Ostheer lategame, seeing as how it is the end of your tech tree. USF gets great AI + great AT at the end of the tech. Ostheer gets the Panther + Brummbar, both very useful breakthrough tanks to support with your P4s that also scale very well. OKW gets the King Tiger nondoctrinally, which can be suppored by AT infantry and great armor options, as well as the Panther for the early late game. T3 soviets get 1 unit, the T34/76, which loses to everything out of the box, then loses EVEN MORE as units vet up. T3 + T4 soviets lose the armor equaity vs. Ostheer, but gain a Katyusha, which is useful to harass defensive positions and blobs, and an SU85, which is Hard Countered by a single Heavy AT source.

Price is no reason to make a unit terrible at all times in the game. The Sherman costs less than a P4, yet is much better vs. infantry and only worse vs. vehicles, plus has the utility of radio net and smoke. Grens are much cheaper than riflemen, yet scale much better into the lategame with lmgs and vet. The Jackson costs a lot less than a Panther, but is much better vs. heavy tanks. The T34/76 is less than the P4 and Sherman, but worse than both in EVERY WAY (except for like .3 speed and acceleration vs. the P4), while also being the sole source of both AT and AI in Soviet T3. If you want to increase the price, I don't think anyone will complain about the increase if it becomes a good scaling tank like the Sherman or the P4. If you decrease the price and keep same stats, noone will complain because then it will actualy be cost effective for and have the numbers it needs lategame to deal with heavies. If you do neither, and also kill callins, you get a Soviet faction that is even worse lategame than USF ever was.


Buffing T34/76 in theory is fine, but what I would like to know is how do you balance the tank when you consider the effect of Marked Target and Soviet Industry. What kind of buff would make T34/76 effective without those two commanders yet not OP when used in conjunction with those commanders.
14 Jun 2015, 04:36 AM
#369
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4485

If Relic cares about authenticity, explain Pak 43's shooting through buildings or IR halftracks seeing through everything.


That's why they use the word authenticity, not realism.
14 Jun 2015, 05:14 AM
#370
avatar of comm_ash
Patrion 14

Posts: 1132 | Subs: 1



Buffing T34/76 in theory is fine, but what I would like to know is how do you balance the tank when you consider the effect of Marked Target and Soviet Industry. What kind of buff would make T34/76 effective without those two commanders yet not OP when used in conjunction with those commanders.


Even with the current price, soviet industry does not care about fuel. You may use the fuel efficiently for the first two tanks you build, but at a certain point, you end up manpower starved, and manpower becomes the limiter. A 290 mp t34/76 would still be quite costly for an industry player.

In terms of mark target, I don't see what it will change really. Mark target requires the tank in question to pen, and T34s don't pen heavies very consistently. Mark target isnt op with su85s currently, and i dont forsee t34s entering the battlefield faster becoming much more powerful in terms of at. This is due to the fact that soviet mark target increases damage by 30%. This means that it will still take 4 t34 shots to kill a p4, keeping the matchup the same. The big bonus for mark target is that it let's medium armor and TD's to kill tigers and panthers with one less hit, which I don't see as too big of a problem.
14 Jun 2015, 07:13 AM
#371
avatar of Jack.steven

Posts: 2

SU-85 tank destroyer will simply penetrate through the heaviest axis tanks like tiger.
14 Jun 2015, 09:32 AM
#372
avatar of newvan

Posts: 352

comm_ash is totally right, Mark target doesn't affect penetration, no penetration = no bonus damage, and T-34/76 only have 120/100/80 it wouldn't be a problem. And industry is to crippled by MP penalty, you can't spam tanks without cutting investments into your inf/support weapons army, it isn't viable option in 1v1.

And... hypothetically speaking... it even wouldn't be possible to built T-34/76 for doctrines like Guard Motor and only 2 more doctrines do have MT - mighty Partisans and Mechanized Support.
14 Jun 2015, 09:55 AM
#373
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 13691 | Subs: 7

Ho-ly shit. Just when Alex was getting all chill, and worth reading, a long comes Zyllen, shit poster of the 1st degree.

Axis fan bois are the Sith confirmed. When one drops, another takes his place. Always two there are.

We should erect a memorial wall for the all the fallen sith lords axis fanboys that have come and gone.

Welp, here is to another 6 months of reading shit poster extraordinaire.




The lolcake legacy will live on forever within the master and the apprentice.
15 Jun 2015, 13:14 PM
#374
avatar of Chiro
Donator 11

Posts: 90

I think the whole discussion is splitted into 2 parties
People who compare the T34/76 with the P4 and people who see the whole faction.

I say both are right and a different solution should be found.

Overperforming Call-ins do not justify overperforming stock units.

Does Soviet deserve a strong lategame after they have such a strong early and midgame?

If yes how could this be achieved without call-ins to enable/encourage other commander?
Without buffing the T34 to unhistorical level* a new unit should be introduced.
Possible units would be the KV1, KV 85 or IS1
-KV1 is already in the game would make a good bullet sponge
-KV85 would be a T34/85 with more armor and less mobility (my personal favourite)
-IS1 would be a Tiger equivalent and probably OP as fuck (but a cool unit)

If no call-ins must be brought in line with stock unit power and everybody is happy (as if).
How could this be done? (this should be done to ALL factions)
Call-ins don't need fuel but a lot of MP (like coh1)
Call-ins need teching and are build unlocked in addition to the normal units
Call-ins are pushed back a few CP (Tiger/IS 2 to 15Cp?)


If you continue this discussion keep the above in mind and remember that you can't fix any unit ingame without fixing the OP-meta units.


* I know that we have a lot of bullshit in the game like pak 43, button and the IR halftrack but when I see unit ingame I have a certain expectancy and if this is not fulfilled I'm dissatisfied.
15 Jun 2015, 13:51 PM
#375
avatar of The_rEd_bEar

Posts: 730

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Jun 2015, 13:14 PMChiro
I think the whole discussion is splitted into 2 parties
People who compare the T34/76 with the P4 and people who see the whole faction.

I say both are right and a different solution should be found.

Overperforming Call-ins do not justify overperforming stock units.

Does Soviet deserve a strong lategame after they have such a strong early and midgame?

If yes how could this be achieved without call-ins to enable/encourage other commander?
Without buffing the T34 to unhistorical level* a new unit should be introduced.
Possible units would be the KV1, KV 85 or IS1
-KV1 is already in the game would make a good bullet sponge
-KV85 would be a T34/85 with more armor and less mobility (my personal favourite)
-IS1 would be a Tiger equivalent and probably OP as fuck (but a cool unit)

If no call-ins must be brought in line with stock unit power and everybody is happy (as if).
How could this be done? (this should be done to ALL factions)
Call-ins don't need fuel but a lot of MP (like coh1)
Call-ins need teching and are build unlocked in addition to the normal units
Call-ins are pushed back a few CP (Tiger/IS 2 to 15Cp?)


If you continue this discussion keep the above in mind and remember that you can't fix any unit ingame without fixing the OP-meta units.


* I know that we have a lot of bullshit in the game like pak 43, button and the IR halftrack but when I see unit ingame I have a certain expectancy and if this is not fulfilled I'm dissatisfied.
this brings us to another issue relics shit faction design with their insistance on allies being early game factions and germans being late. Instead of giving all of them equal chances at all stages of the game.
15 Jun 2015, 14:07 PM
#376
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 13691 | Subs: 7

this brings us to another issue relics shit faction design with their insistance on allies being early game factions and germans being late. Instead of giving all of them equal chances at all stages of the game.


Actually, they have adjusting the power curves for a long time now.
Sov isn't as strong as it used to be early and as weak late game.
Reverse situation for ost.
At 23rd it'll get even more equal.

On the other hand we have USF and OKW.
There isn't much that can be done to OKW thanks to their vet snowball effect and volkspam based early game. It was diminished, but the problem will always persist as long as shrecks are on volks and there is vet5 system in place, if not for the fuel limitation, OKW would easily be #1 faction of all times.

USF, well they have strong infantry but can be outnumbered, their infantry reliance falls after mid game and armor takes the lead, they are pretty good early game, but can be easily locked down as well due to weakness to suppression early game, pretty much pidgeonholed to rifle spam to fast M20 with pretty linear power curve, stronger early game then other factions(if suppression isn't applied) and weaker late game.
22 Jun 2015, 18:54 PM
#377
avatar of Rocket

Posts: 588

Ho-ly shit. Just when Alex was getting all chill, and worth reading, a long comes Zyllen, shit poster of the 1st degree.

Axis fan bois are the Sith confirmed. When one drops, another takes his place. Always two there are.

We should erect a memorial wall for the all the fallen sith lords axis fanboys that have come and gone.

Welp, here is to another 6 months of reading shit poster extraordinaire.


jump backJump back to quoted post14 Jun 2015, 09:55 AMKatitof




The lolcake legacy will live on forever within the master and the apprentice.


Lmao. I kinda of miss Vetlolcake hes like that mildy retarded kid at school, because he ate paint chips as a kid, but you keep him around anyway for the laughs.

23 Jun 2015, 21:59 PM
#378
avatar of Napalm

Posts: 1567 | Subs: 2



A really good post


You make good posts. Do you like Bears? You should join us on TeamSpeak for some games.
23 Jun 2015, 22:20 PM
#379
avatar of comm_ash
Patrion 14

Posts: 1132 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Jun 2015, 21:59 PMNapalm


You make good posts. Do you like Bears? You should join us on TeamSpeak for some games.


Unfortunately, I am going to India in 2 days, so I won't be around until August. Definitely when I get back.

Besides, I don't know if I am koala-fied. B-)
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