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T-34 needs a buff

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12 Jun 2015, 22:16 PM
#321
avatar of Zyllen

Posts: 665



Being 10 fuel cheaper isn't an excuse for being totally inferior in every way.


Actually its a pretty valid excuse. And their is also the issue that the usf has no heavies or 85's or decent AT guns so they need to draw their strength from somewhere else. the t-34 is weaker because it is meant to be weaker. Asymmetrical balance we call that


And if you dont agree then convince me why the soviets need a stronger stock medium tank. And just comparing stats with other medium tanks isnt valid. you need to look at the shole faction.
12 Jun 2015, 22:54 PM
#322
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 13685 | Subs: 7

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Jun 2015, 22:16 PMZyllen


Actually its a pretty valid excuse. And their is also the issue that the usf has no heavies or 85's or decent AT guns so they need to draw their strength from somewhere else. the t-34 is weaker because it is meant to be weaker. Asymmetrical balance we call that


And if you dont agree then convince me why the soviets need a stronger stock medium tank. And just comparing stats with other medium tanks isnt valid. you need to look at the shole faction.


And what is your excuse for SU-76?
Sorry, but that isn't asymmetrical balance here, thats bullshit argument.

If the price of the tank prevents overcoming your opponents much stronger tanks with numbers, then its not asymmetrical balance, its bad balance, no matter how you try to look at it.
12 Jun 2015, 22:59 PM
#323
avatar of EffenNewbie

Posts: 1257

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Jun 2015, 22:16 PMZyllen


Actually its a pretty valid excuse. And their is also the issue that the usf has no heavies or 85's or decent AT guns so they need to draw their strength from somewhere else. the t-34 is weaker because it is meant to be weaker. Asymmetrical balance we call that


And if you dont agree then convince me why the soviets need a stronger stock medium tank. And just comparing stats with other medium tanks isnt valid. you need to look at the shole faction.


So what units do the US players have that can take damage like Tigers, Panthers, Elefants, JT's, KT's, Mr Asymmetrical Balance?

Moving the T34 to Tier 4 with its present stats will just ensure that nobody builds them.
12 Jun 2015, 23:33 PM
#324
avatar of comm_ash
Patrion 14

Posts: 1132 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Jun 2015, 22:16 PMZyllen


Actually its a pretty valid excuse. And their is also the issue that the usf has no heavies or 85's or decent AT guns so they need to draw their strength from somewhere else. the t-34 is weaker because it is meant to be weaker. Asymmetrical balance we call that


And if you dont agree then convince me why the soviets need a stronger stock medium tank. And just comparing stats with other medium tanks isnt valid. you need to look at the shole faction.


I have already explained it to you. Soviets need a stronger stock tank because the t34 is literally the best tank the soviets get for the entire game. Not only that, but it is the entire late game of soviet t3. If soviets are to be expected to survive without callins (which is what everyone wants), the first step will be giving them a late game worth etching for.

Currently, the t34 is the weakest tank, but it cannot gain a numbers advantage due to its cost. For the price of 4 p4s, you can get 5 t34s, and the 4 p4s will be dealing more ai and at damage, while simultaneously also scaling better in future engagements thanks to the significant vet 2 armor buff. On top of that, ostheer has the option to tech to t4, for more powerful, well armored, specialised units, while a soviet must spend more fuel to tech to their t4, which gives acess to the defensive su85 and the defensive katyusha. Soviet t3 +t4 has no breakthrough unit that can tank blows. The t34 needs to be more spammable, or it needs to scale better in some way, or soviets will have no chance without callins.

Also, the 100 fu cost does not justify it's current performance, as outlined above. Its simply not cheap enough. I could make obers cost 600 mp, and they will still be the most powerful long range infantry, but they would still be cost ineffective.
13 Jun 2015, 00:16 AM
#325
avatar of CookiezNcreem
Donator 11

Posts: 3040 | Subs: 14



I have already explained it to you. Soviets need a stronger stock tank because the t34 is literally the best tank the soviets get for the entire game. Not only that, but it is the entire late game of soviet t3. If soviets are to be expected to survive without callins (which is what everyone wants), the first step will be giving them a late game worth etching for.

Currently, the t34 is the weakest tank, but it cannot gain a numbers advantage due to its cost. For the price of 4 p4s, you can get 5 t34s, and the 4 p4s will be dealing more ai and at damage, while simultaneously also scaling better in future engagements thanks to the significant vet 2 armor buff. On top of that, ostheer has the option to tech to t4, for more powerful, well armored, specialised units, while a soviet must spend more fuel to tech to their t4, which gives acess to the defensive su85 and the defensive katyusha. Soviet t3 +t4 has no breakthrough unit that can tank blows. The t34 needs to be more spammable, or it needs to scale better in some way, or soviets will have no chance without callins.

Also, the 100 fu cost does not justify it's current performance, as outlined above. Its simply not cheap enough. I could make obers cost 600 mp, and they will still be the most powerful long range infantry, but they would still be cost ineffective.



HMM commash..
im all for a slight t3476 veterancy buff +cost buffso it can actually duke it out with panzer 4s once vetted :foreveralone:
But let's be real :foreveralone:

Callins themselves will never go anywhere, they will always have a late game if you so choose.
The the T3485,KV1,Is2,ISU, ETC will STILL BE IN THE GAME duking it out with German steel in the late game :foreveralone:

EXCEPT HOPEFULLY :foreveralone: You won't be able to simply spam these good tonks and stay at t0>t2. That's what everyone hates :foreveralone:

You'll simply have to tech to the callinz :foreveralone: and make your late game better.
Just like Prosteer will hopefully have to do with their big cats, hopefully :foreveralone:


Now this doesn't solve the issue of doctrines like reserve army not having a call in tank and therefore no late game worth a crap,because like you and others are saying the best tank the soviets have outside of "meta" doctrines is the t3476 :foreveralone: and the only way to allow it to scale is going t3 t4 which is impossible CURRENTLY :foreveralone:
the only real solution outside buffing the t34 to unreal levels :foreveralone:

Is If they made a certain up gunned medium tank stock for all doctrines, and left other callinz to their specific doctrines.... :foreveralone:


13 Jun 2015, 00:23 AM
#326
avatar of EffenNewbie

Posts: 1257




HMM commash..
im all for a slight t3476 veterancy buff +cost buffso it can actually duke it out with panzer 4s once vetted :foreveralone:
But let's be real :foreveralone:

Callins themselves will never go anywhere, they will always have a late game if you so choose.
The the T3485,KV1,Is2,ISU, ETC will STILL BE IN THE GAME duking it out with German steel in the late game :foreveralone:

EXCEPT HOPEFULLY :foreveralone: You won't be able to simply spam these good tonks and stay at t0>t2. That's what everyone hates :foreveralone:

You'll simply have to tech to the callinz :foreveralone: and make your late game better.
Just like Prosteer will hopefully have to do with their big cats, hopefully :foreveralone:


Now this doesn't solve the issue of doctrines like reserve army not having a call in tank and therefore no late game worth a crap,because like you and others are saying the best tank the soviets have outside of "meta" doctrines is the t3476 :foreveralone: and the only way to allow it to scale is going t3 t4 which is impossible CURRENTLY :foreveralone:
the only real solution outside buffing the t34 to unreal levels :foreveralone:

Is If they made a certain up gunned medium tank stock for all doctrines, and left other callinz to their specific doctrines.... :foreveralone:




Or Relic could just make the T34/85 the standard T4 tank, and make the T34/76 into the call-in, with a low cp value so it still has some shock value. WFA was supposed to be late war and the standard Soviet tank was the T34/85 by then.
13 Jun 2015, 00:27 AM
#327
avatar of Zyllen

Posts: 665



I have already explained it to you. Soviets need a stronger stock tank because the t34 is literally the best tank the soviets get for the entire game. Not only that, but it is the entire late game of soviet t3. If soviets are to be expected to survive without callins (which is what everyone wants), the first step will be giving them a late game worth etching for.


Why do you blatantly ignore the fact that soviets have better call ins compared to the usf?
Yes they have somewhat weaker stock then the usf. They have far better callins and this will not change even with the changes made in the alpha. i see no reason for buffing the t-34



Currently, the t34 is the weakest tank, but it cannot gain a numbers advantage due to its cost. For the price of 4 p4s, you can get 5 t34s, and the 4 p4s will be dealing more ai and at damage, while simultaneously also scaling better in future engagements thanks to the significant vet 2 armor buff. On top of that, ostheer has the option to tech to t4, for more powerful, well armored, specialised units, while a soviet must spend more fuel to tech to their t4, which gives acess to the defensive su85 and the defensive katyusha. Soviet t3 +t4 has no breakthrough unit that can tank blows. The t34 needs to be more spammable, or it needs to scale better in some way, or soviets will have no chance without callins.


Mate this is the argument i do not wish to hear. And you basically invalided your entire argument.The t-34 is not meant to be spammed its meant to be used in conjunction with the TD's or AI tanks. You can spam 5 t-34's all you want its not going to change the fact that 1 p4 with 2 stugs is going to nail 5 t-34's to the wall. same goes for 5 p4's and 1 t-34 and 2 su85's.
But at the moment its difficult to get a t-34 and 2 su85's



Also, the 100 fu cost does not justify it's current performance, as outlined above. Its simply not cheap enough. I could make obers cost 600 mp, and they will still be the most powerful long range infantry, but they would still be cost ineffective.


The stats between the p4 and the t-34 is not as colossal as you make it out to be. 150 vs 180 armour and 20% less dps for the the t-34. that's why pay more for the p4. And while the mg does aid the p4 with AI its not free.
13 Jun 2015, 00:29 AM
#328
avatar of Zyllen

Posts: 665



Or Relic could just make the T34/85 the standard T4 tank, and make the T34/76 into the call-in, with a low cp value so it still has some shock value. WFA was supposed to be late war and the standard Soviet tank was the T34/85 by then.


is their a reason why the 85 should be there?
13 Jun 2015, 00:35 AM
#329
avatar of 1[][]

Posts: 172

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Jun 2015, 21:00 PMTheSleep3r


Yeah, I want to see thousands of T-34s ramming a Panther and destroying it only via ram damage :snfBarton:



Eh, I don't care. Player's fault for getting a panther instead of another PIV or some paks :megusta:
13 Jun 2015, 01:26 AM
#330
avatar of The_rEd_bEar

Posts: 730

Why is everyone arguing with zyllen? Its useless he thinks he's right and refuses to listens to any ones point of view,you're literally talking to a brick wall
13 Jun 2015, 01:33 AM
#331
avatar of comm_ash
Patrion 14

Posts: 1132 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Jun 2015, 00:27 AMZyllen


Why do you blatantly ignore the fact that soviets have better call ins compared to the usf?
Yes they have somewhat weaker stock then the usf. They have far better callins and this will not change even with the changes made in the alpha. i see no reason for buffing the t-34



Mate this is the argument i do not wish to hear. And you basically invalided your entire argument.The t-34 is not meant to be spammed its meant to be used in conjunction with the TD's or AI tanks. You can spam 5 t-34's all you want its not going to change the fact that 1 p4 with 2 stugs is going to nail 5 t-34's to the wall. same goes for 5 p4's and 1 t-34 and 2 su85's.
But at the moment its difficult to get a t-34 and 2 su85's



The stats between the p4 and the t-34 is not as colossal as you make it out to be. 150 vs 180 armour and 20% less dps for the the t-34. that's why pay more for the p4. And while the mg does aid the p4 with AI its not free.


Holy shit dude. You can't use callins as an excuse to gimp the main faction. What about the 12 doctrines without IS2/t34/85/m4c? Should they never be used in favor of callins? Has anyone ever said that OKW is op because you can get p4 call in + kt?

The point of this thread is the need for the core soviet faction to have a decent medium tank to support itself. No army should rely on callins to such a crippling extent. Claiming that callins like the is2 are op (and rightly so), yet expecting the core army to remain as weak as it is currently is just hypocritical, when Ostheer has a great medium in the p4, yet isn't op when used to support a tiger.

If you think heavy callins meta late game is perfectly balanced and fun/ not cheesy to use and fight, then I question your sanity.

Now then, please try again.

Edit: in terms of your p4 vs. T34/76 statement. The t34 has a 100/180 chance to pen a stock P4 at mid range while the p4 has a 110/180 chance. This is at vet 0. At vet 2, the p4 gets over 220 effective armor at vet 2, giving the t34 < 50% to pen at mid and long ranges. At far, the t34 has 80 pen whole the p4 has 100. At close, both tanks have 120 pen.

And the t34 in no way is meant to be used in conjunction with other armor. It has 0 advantages that support armor foes (high dps, high survivability), and has NO LATEGAME units in its tier. People stop using t70s late game because t70s have 320hp (1 pak43/jt/ele, 2 pak), not because people suck. Su85's are almost impossible to tech to. T34s are absolutely meant to be spammed.
13 Jun 2015, 02:13 AM
#334
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4485

Or Relic could just make the T34/85 the standard T4 tank, and make the T34/76 into the call-in, with a low cp value so it still has some shock value. WFA was supposed to be late war and the standard Soviet tank was the T34/85 by then.


If they did that, the T-34/85 would need to see a nerf then. It's a bit strong to be your basic medium tank, and you wouldn't be able to field as many of them either. They should be at least P4 level if they're to be stock.
13 Jun 2015, 02:37 AM
#335
avatar of EffenNewbie

Posts: 1257

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Jun 2015, 00:29 AMZyllen


is their a reason why the 85 should be there?


You still haven't answered the question of what units do the US players have that can take damage like Tigers, Panthers, Elefants, JT's, KT's? That and arguments like using dps for comparing tanks show that you either don't understand the game or are just trolling.
13 Jun 2015, 02:41 AM
#336
avatar of EffenNewbie

Posts: 1257



If they did that, the T-34/85 would need to see a nerf then. It's a bit strong to be your basic medium tank, and you wouldn't be able to field as many of them either. They should be at least P4 level if they're to be stock.


Sure, and while Relic is at it, they should nerf the Panther down to P4 level also, because they're the other tanks available in Tier 4.
13 Jun 2015, 02:59 AM
#337
avatar of daspoulos

Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1

Permanently Banned


Sure, and while Relic is at it, they should nerf the Panther down to P4 level also, because they're the other tanks available in Tier 4.

That makes zero sense.
13 Jun 2015, 03:59 AM
#338
avatar of daspoulos

Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1

Permanently Banned

That makes zero sense. You should know as to why.
edit button too hard
13 Jun 2015, 04:22 AM
#339
avatar of Nuclear Arbitor
Patrion 28

Posts: 2470

13 Jun 2015, 04:25 AM
#340
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4485

Sure, and while Relic is at it, they should nerf the Panther down to P4 level also, because they're the other tanks available in Tier 4.


Soviet T4 isn't equivalent to Ostheer T4. The Panther is not a generalist tank, it's a tank hunter.
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