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JP4 performance

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29 Sep 2021, 19:03 PM
#1
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2452 | Subs: 2

Since no one has complained about that unit in a long time, I'll take the step forward and go ahead.

I've been testing the JP4 a lot recently, and I find it either OP or at least very close to it. I am talking from a team game perspective (2v2/3v3), and seriously this thing is amazing.

The stats are good to great. Small target size, good armor, but most importantly: very good ROF.
If I had two complaints about the unit, I'd say it is its mobility. It feels a bit janky to use, but at least after vet3 this problem is solved as well. Penetration is a bit low, I don't necessarily recommend it vs Brits. Still, the pen is high enough to 100% penetrate every other stock unit apart from Churchill and Comet. Against Soviets and USF the JP4 works like a charm.

The vet is SO strong on it. +160 HP at vet 2, making it a 5-shot vehicle. Unless you really screw up, it practically does not die from this point onwards. And even if it does, your opponent has pushed so far that you'll at least get a trade from it. The accuracy bonus at vet3 will basically guarantee you a hit against all mediums and above as long as you stand still. The 60 range will also guarantee to shut down enemy TDs, against which the JP4 will almost guarantee a win in a shoot out.

vet4-5 usually come fairly late and are often not game deciding anymore, but the second vet level is easily reachable, and as I said you won't lose the JP4 from there on, so it is only a matter of time for the rest of the vet to kick in.
ROF is great, even at vet0 (5 seconds) and just gets better at vet4 (4 seconds).

The lack of mobility can often been counter acted by good scouting (I often play Pfusiliere with it) and 1-2 mines on the most obvious flanking paths. As for repairs, I usually play T2 (with my OST team mate donating a med bunker) to get the repairatrons, which also counter acts the increased repair time with 800 HP.

The only real weakness that I have not managed to overcome is the difficulty to really finish off enemy vehicles. That's a clear disadvantage compared to the Panther. But apart from this, you get so much out of this unit it is crazy.
29 Sep 2021, 19:19 PM
#2
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3233 | Subs: 1

Never really understood the armor on the JP4. It's a 60 range TD with a relatively small target size and it gets 160HP at vet 2 like you mentioned. Why does it need the armor?

I don't think it's horribly gamebreaking or anything, just find it confusing
29 Sep 2021, 19:41 PM
#3
avatar of general_gawain

Posts: 823

...


I never understood all that OKW ranting about allied TDs while you can have a TD by yourself which beats every allied TD in a 1vs1 standoff at Vet0 already (not counting in the 160hp of vet2 which makes it even more obvious). Their low penetration vs heavies is partly compensated by having the highest Vet0 firerate of all TDs, but yes it is far better vs allied mediums and TDs than vs allied heavies.
I'm using the JP4 to greart success by myself. I wouldn't consider it op since it has absolutely no AI abilities at all, but man it is a very strong TD. In addition Vet4/5 is no lackluster at this unit, it really gets somehow op at that vet levels.
29 Sep 2021, 19:47 PM
#4
avatar of PatFenis

Posts: 113

Indeed the JP4 is a very good unit. While I agree it may be deserving of a nerf, is it really all that problematic?

In the recent past there was alot of backpeddleing on certain units, and as long as it is not broken I dont see why to change the JP4. Especially since we are allegedly done with patches anyways.
29 Sep 2021, 19:52 PM
#5
avatar of EtherealDragon

Posts: 1790 | Subs: 1


I wouldn't consider it op since it has absolutely no AI abilities at all, but man it is a very strong TD.


Yeah I'd agree that it kind of falls into the COH2 TD mold of ramping up quickly with Vet but downsides of no AI and lack of Turret keep it in check (at least on non-lane maps). I'd say Vet 3 Jackson,Firefly, SU85, etc. can feel roughly as strong at times as well. It's kind of nice that it's different from other TDs with being generally more survivable given how much other units/factions have become alike over the years.
29 Sep 2021, 19:55 PM
#6
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12249 | Subs: 1

The unit has high Pop and cost so I do not see how it is "op".

When pays extra for armor when all one needs is a gun...
29 Sep 2021, 20:09 PM
#7
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2452 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Sep 2021, 19:55 PMVipper
The unit has high Pop and cost so I do not see how it is "op".

When pays extra for armor when all one needs is a gun...

High pop cost is the case for all TDs, however the JP4 performs better against almost all Allied stock units than Allied TDs do against Axis stock units. Especially if you regard faction context.

Indeed the JP4 is a very good unit. While I agree it may be deserving of a nerf, is it really all that problematic?

In the recent past there was alot of backpeddleing on certain units, and as long as it is not broken I dont see why to change the JP4. Especially since we are allegedly done with patches anyways.

I mean that's the question that I wanted to open up for debate. Stat wise, performance wise, this unit is top notch in almost all regards, and the few weaknesses it has can fairly easily be worked with or are fixed with vet.
29 Sep 2021, 20:10 PM
#8
avatar of leithianz

Posts: 362

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Sep 2021, 19:55 PMVipper
The unit has high Pop and cost so I do not see how it is "op".

When pays extra for armor when all one needs is a gun...


All of the sudden 400mp/135 fuel/15 pop 60 range TD = high pop and cost.

JFYI,

Jackson : 400mp/145 fuel/16 pop
Su-85 : 350mp/130 fuel/15 pop
Firefly : 440mp/145 fuel/16 pop
29 Sep 2021, 20:14 PM
#9
avatar of leithianz

Posts: 362

Anyway, JP4 is indeed good unit especially thanks to it's stealth ability. (All those OKW-crazy-technology thanks to its long lost concept), however it is very hard to see in 1v1 since OKW already can access to one of the best stock tanks - P4J & Panther - within the same tier.

But yes, I do agree it kind of gets into the OP in terms of 2v2 or higher mode since it can counter allies TD with good RoF + stealth + low target size + armor.

Didn't we already nerfed Jackson's armor because P4 "sometimes" can't penetrate at long range?
29 Sep 2021, 20:19 PM
#10
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 1557

Since no one has complained about that unit in a long time, I'll take the step forward and go ahead.

I've been testing the JP4 a lot recently, and I find it either OP or at least very close to it. I am talking from a team game perspective (2v2/3v3), and seriously this thing is amazing.

The stats are good to great. Small target size, good armor, but most importantly: very good ROF.
If I had two complaints about the unit, I'd say it is its mobility. It feels a bit janky to use, but at least after vet3 this problem is solved as well. Penetration is a bit low, I don't necessarily recommend it vs Brits. Still, the pen is high enough to 100% penetrate every other stock unit apart from Churchill and Comet. Against Soviets and USF the JP4 works like a charm.

The vet is SO strong on it. +160 HP at vet 2, making it a 5-shot vehicle. Unless you really screw up, it practically does not die from this point onwards. And even if it does, your opponent has pushed so far that you'll at least get a trade from it. The accuracy bonus at vet3 will basically guarantee you a hit against all mediums and above as long as you stand still. The 60 range will also guarantee to shut down enemy TDs, against which the JP4 will almost guarantee a win in a shoot out.

vet4-5 usually come fairly late and are often not game deciding anymore, but the second vet level is easily reachable, and as I said you won't lose the JP4 from there on, so it is only a matter of time for the rest of the vet to kick in.
ROF is great, even at vet0 (5 seconds) and just gets better at vet4 (4 seconds).

The lack of mobility can often been counter acted by good scouting (I often play Pfusiliere with it) and 1-2 mines on the most obvious flanking paths. As for repairs, I usually play T2 (with my OST team mate donating a med bunker) to get the repairatrons, which also counter acts the increased repair time with 800 HP.

The only real weakness that I have not managed to overcome is the difficulty to really finish off enemy vehicles. That's a clear disadvantage compared to the Panther. But apart from this, you get so much out of this unit it is crazy.

wow, you only just noticed this. It's been pretty borderline OP. There real reason why people don't complain about it, is very simple: P4 is essential and is enough to counter mediums while allies need TD's to counter it and Panthers have mobility to chase TD while JP4 just act as area denials so in short, OKW don't really need it in 1v1 or 2v2 people don't see it often and hence less complaining.
29 Sep 2021, 20:20 PM
#11
avatar of Geblobt

Posts: 186

The unit is good and has nice stats. But why would you build it? It doesn't work vs Scott+Jackson, t34 can be dealt by P4s and vs Comet, Pershing and IS2 its kinda unreliable.

Meanwhile it gives you zero map presence and pushing power. P4s and P5s offer more and are more flexible.

Either you already have a KT to support or you rely on your mates in teamgames.
29 Sep 2021, 20:23 PM
#12
avatar of Alphrum

Posts: 773

lol hope this thread is a joke. Jp4 is to counter medium tanks and below. like other TD's its got no chance vs inf and At guns and doesn't reliably pen tanks with decent armour. Yes, it has some superior stats to other 60 range TD's but its lacking in 1 critical department and that's high penetration.

You dont see it as much cuz OKW need inf support from pz4 otherwise you'll get steam rolled by inf and panthers to counter heavy armour.
29 Sep 2021, 20:26 PM
#13
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1112

JP4 is by far the best TD in the game. Insanely good ROF. Insanely survivable. Penetration is decent enough to warrant pens on pretty much all stock tanks. Even when it goes against heavy tanks, the ROF is enough to warrant a couple of pens.

It's been OP for a long time. Nobody talked about it because the Jackson has been the main thorn in OST players regarding TDs. But in teamgames, on lane-y maps, Jackson doesn't hold a candle to JP4.

Pretty much every thread was filled with whataboutisms and so nobody talked about JP4.

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Sep 2021, 20:23 PMAlphrum
lol hope this thread is a joke. Jp4 is to counter medium tanks and below. like other TD's its got no chance vs inf and At guns and doesn't reliably pen tanks with decent armour. Yes, it has some superior stats to other 60 range TD's but its lacking in 1 critical department and that's high penetration.

You dont see it as much cuz OKW need inf support from pz4 otherwise you'll get steam rolled by inf and panthers to counter heavy armour.


JP4 has a 60% chance to pen a Comet. That's more than enough coupled with the ROF it has.
Even when going vs an IS-2. The penetration chance is 50%. You won't kill an IS-2, but you will most definitely keep it in check.
Put a JP4 on a lane-y map, combine it with a P4 and a stuka, and you have a perfect reply to anything in teamgames. Especially since diving a JP4 is difficult. You can't fire on the move due to the 17 target size and you have to go behind it due to 230 armour. Not to mention it's a 5 shot tank at vet2. It's literally a perfect TD considering OKW playstyle. The lower penetration is there because it shoots hella-fast.
29 Sep 2021, 20:34 PM
#14
avatar of Geblobt

Posts: 186

JP4 is by far the best TD in the game. Insanely good ROF. Insanely survivable. Penetration is decent enough to warrant pens on pretty much all stock tanks. Even when it goes against heavy tanks, the ROF is enough to warrant a couple of pens.

It's been OP for a long time. Nobody talked about it because the Jackson has been the main thorn in OST players regarding TDs. But in teamgames, on lane-y maps, Jackson doesn't hold a candle to JP4.

Pretty much every thread was filled with whataboutisms and so nobody talked about JP4

It's actually so overpowered that it got banned in competitive COH2 5years ago. That's why we don't see it in tourneys.
Oh wait no it didn't. Weird that the best TD in-game doesn't get played.
29 Sep 2021, 20:47 PM
#15
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1112

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Sep 2021, 20:34 PMGeblobt

It's actually so overpowered that it got banned in competitive COH2 5years ago. That's why we don't see it in tourneys.
Oh wait no it didn't. Weird that the best TD in-game doesn't get played.


In 3v3 there is always a JP4 wall sooner or later on most maps. You won't play it in the tourney because a Panther is generally a better choice. Much more mobile and counters every tank, hard. JP4 is more difficult to use and a more defensive tank, used to solidify the position. In 1v1 there is no such thing as solidifying. In 2v2+ there most certainly is. In 3v3 it's most common.
With 60% penetration and a couple of seconds between shots, no tank wants to stand in the line of fire for too long. With a bit of luck on JP4 side, your tank goes bye-bye.
So yeah, it's OP in teamgames but not because of it's stats or whatever. JP4 should have lower armour IMHO since it has such low target size and becomes a 5-shot tank with veterancy. But the main strength of JP4 is in map design. Put 1-2 JP4s on a map like redball. Combine it with a stuka and a KT and you have an impenetrable fortress that will only ever be pushed back by 2 opponents combined. Such nonsense would not work on 1v1 maps and some 2v2
29 Sep 2021, 20:49 PM
#16
avatar of Lady Xenarra

Posts: 756

Well alright let's give this thread a go, never thought I'd be discussing JP4 on here. 3v3 perspective mainly.

Many points have already been addressed. It's not like it has 230 armour and a turret. By the time it arrives your main opponents are meds (range 40), Comets (45) or enemy TDs (60). Two of which can't shoot you unless you're careless (or using JP4 on the edge of the front) and the others will punch through the armour like butter. Comet will consistently pen too. If they charge you with a med, you better hope for some armor and fast unless you can get the gun pointing at them just right whilst reversing, free shots on you all the while you don't. The closest analogue is the old SU-85 with lower pen and better fire rate. But you get 45 sight range instead of Focused Sight, meaning a med is already in shooting range by the time you see it.

I personally use this vehicle very heavily but it's a rarity/very uncommon to see in other OKW players' hands. I've actually been mocked by a top 15 Axis player for using it. A very high skill threshold imho and thus many ppl prefer Panthers. A pair of them can scare away Jacksons/Fireflies (to a lesser degree SU-85) or even kill them outright, but it's dangerous. If they decide to hard commit to a slug out, it's usually because they have something else in the picture.

Vet III to vet III, your size doesn't really matter (unless FoW) and everyones' TDs gets hits. Imho it's exchanged pen/dmg vet bonuses for (hp) and later arriving acc/rel.

tl;dr The unit is fine imho. Yes skill & improved tactics can mitigate its weaknesses/make its strengths deadly etc. but that's not really saying anything.

EDIT: Does anyone even use the vet 1 ability? Is it just me in this place? 300 games and I've seen it maybe 3 or 4 times.

Didn't we already nerfed Jackson's armor because P4 "sometimes" can't penetrate at long range?


Jackson has a turret, 6.5 move spd (to pz iv 6.3) and a ludicrous 3 acc.
29 Sep 2021, 21:01 PM
#17
avatar of BetterDead ThanRed

Posts: 184

doesnt every TD have its pros and cons?
it's got more hp and lower size vs its low pen
29 Sep 2021, 21:05 PM
#18
avatar of Alphrum

Posts: 773

JP4 is by far the best TD in the game. Insanely good ROF. Insanely survivable. Penetration is decent enough to warrant pens on pretty much all stock tanks. Even when it goes against heavy tanks, the ROF is enough to warrant a couple of pens.

It's been OP for a long time. Nobody talked about it because the Jackson has been the main thorn in OST players regarding TDs. But in teamgames, on lane-y maps, Jackson doesn't hold a candle to JP4.

Pretty much every thread was filled with whataboutisms and so nobody talked about JP4.



JP4 has a 60% chance to pen a Comet. That's more than enough coupled with the ROF it has.
Even when going vs an IS-2. The penetration chance is 50%
. You won't kill an IS-2, but you will most definitely keep it in check.
Put a JP4 on a lane-y map, combine it with a P4 and a stuka, and you have a perfect reply to anything in teamgames. Especially since diving a JP4 is difficult. You can't fire on the move due to the 17 target size and you have to go behind it due to 230 armour. Not to mention it's a 5 shot tank at vet2. It's literally a perfect TD considering OKW playstyle. The lower penetration is there because it shoots hella-fast.
#

50-60% chance to pen are not reliable values to have lol. Majority of ppl agree Jackson is the best non doc TD in the game. the fact that you need to bring laney maps to prove a tank is OP shows in reality, the unit is not. You CAN fire on the move vs its 17 target size is because the moment you come on its sides it cant fire back, so that parts not true at all. And why would you need to get behind it when it has 230 armour? All allied TD's, At guns and most tanks can hit it from the front too. The reason ppl flank it because it cant fire back.
29 Sep 2021, 21:18 PM
#19
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12249 | Subs: 1



All of the sudden 400mp/135 fuel/15 pop 60 range TD = high pop and cost.

JFYI,

Jackson : 400mp/145 fuel/16 pop
Su-85 : 350mp/130 fuel/15 pop
Firefly : 440mp/145 fuel/16 pop

Main difference here is that SU-85 counter heavy armor with higher armor much better and here is the comparison:

JP vs SU-85

Cost
400mp/135 fuel vs 350mp/130 point goes to SU-85 for being cheaper both in fuel and manpower

Pop
15/15 point foes to Su-85 since it can counter unit with higher pop better (heavy armored tanks)

Penetration
200/185/170 vs 240/230/220 point goes to Su-85

mobility
Speed: 5.5/Accel: 1.9/Rotate: 20 vs speed: 5.7/Accel: 2.1/Rotate: 22 Point goes to SU-85

ROF
5 vs 5.65 point goes to JP

XP value
2150/4300/8600/10750/14298 vs 1790/3580/7160 point goes to SU-85

Now as I pointed out the main thing JP over SU-85 is durability which does not really mean that much.

JP is good at keeping other TD at distance but that is about it.

29 Sep 2021, 21:25 PM
#20
avatar of Lady Xenarra

Posts: 756

The only real weakness that I have not managed to overcome is the difficulty to really finish off enemy vehicles. That's a clear disadvantage compared to the Panther. But apart from this, you get so much out of this unit it is crazy.

I advise a dangerous tactic of getting the alpha strike off with 2 x JP4 on the vehicle, HOLD FIRE & chase, then right click to attack the target (thus being stationary and not shooting on the move). Can backfire spectacularly. Works best on fireflies.
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