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USF and MP bleed

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16 Sep 2021, 21:10 PM
#161
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13148 | Subs: 1



Yes most are buffs, yet not every buff is as valuable.

The accuracy chance is not a buff. Its long rang acc got slightly better yet its mid and close range acc got nerfed. The curve got flattened.

Combined with veterancy accuracy buffs it is a major buff. A vet 3 M20 has around 50% more far DPS after the patch than before (if I remember correctly) only slightly less close (which in most case will not use).

The unit is mean to be used far range any way since it can self spot and does not want to move to faust range.


Build time is still longer then before.

Bazooka removed wich you can buy now from weapon racks yes, reducing the effectines of the armoured skirt price buff.

Imo its still worse off overall despite it being cheaper, getting some vet bonusses in acc. Hence imo it isent used much currently

The timing is difficult to tell because of the many changes to USF.

Think it safe to say that it was not: "nerfed quite a bit over the years".

On the contrary it got more utility. Has a new roles to detect cloaked units and counter sniper and a much cheaper investment to get (both in MP and MU) for laying mines.
16 Sep 2021, 23:55 PM
#162
avatar of Kurobane

Posts: 637

Vipper:

The M20 has actually been buffed not nerfed.





Crew no longer has a bazooka.



That Bazooka nerf was a massive nerf so much so that the M20 basically disappeared from use after that and is rarely used now. The main reason why the M20 was good was because you could get 2 of them to inflict MP bleed that was not only cost effective fuel wise vs Stuart but was better than a single stuart while offering 2 bazooka vehicle crew squads which were useful at all stages of the game compared to a Stuart which has a 5 minute window of usefulness.

What is Stuart going to do vs Panzer IV? Nothing but Blind and hope it escapes however the 2 Bazooka squads could actually do something.

USF is ammo starved. Sure you can make the Vehicle Crew come out and give them Bazookas now but if the M20 dies then you just threw away AMMO on nothing which is why no one does that. The Ammo saved from the Bazooka was so huge that the M20 was used in almost every USF build and you saw the M20 every match. This meant you can get bars, drop an extra mine. No amount of buffs to the M20 made up for how massive of a nerf that was to USF which is why its a rare sight today despite it being one of the few decent things USF has.
17 Sep 2021, 00:22 AM
#163
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13148 | Subs: 1


That Bazooka nerf was a massive nerf so much so that the M20 basically disappeared from use after that and is rarely used now. The main reason why the M20 was good was because you could get 2 of them to inflict MP bleed that was not only cost effective fuel wise vs Stuart but was better than a single stuart while offering 2 bazooka vehicle crew squads which were useful at all stages of the game compared to a Stuart which has a 5 minute window of usefulness.

What is Stuart going to do vs Panzer IV? Nothing but Blind and hope it escapes however the 2 Bazooka squads could actually do something.

USF is ammo starved. Sure you can make the Vehicle Crew come out and give them Bazookas now but if the M20 dies then you just threw away AMMO on nothing which is why no one does that. The Ammo saved from the Bazooka was so huge that the M20 was used in almost every USF build and you saw the M20 every match. This meant you can get bars, drop an extra mine. No amount of buffs to the M20 made up for how massive of a nerf that was to USF which is why its a rare sight today despite it being one of the few decent things USF has.

Yes we know every USF has been nerfed to the ground...

On the other hand bazookas is not really relevant because using M20 to lay mine which was the original topic has become a lot cheaper (100mp /20mu/2 pop).
Vaz
17 Sep 2021, 01:37 AM
#164
avatar of Vaz

Posts: 1145

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Sep 2021, 00:22 AMVipper

Yes we know every USF has been nerfed to the ground...

On the other hand bazookas is not really relevant because using M20 to lay mine which was the original topic has become a lot cheaper (100mp /20mu/2 pop).


There was no mu savings in dropping a mine. It looks like you threw in the armored skirts change, but you don't need skirts for mines. Laying mines where the enemy can notice is dumb, so it should never be seen doing that.
17 Sep 2021, 12:29 PM
#165
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 753


That Bazooka nerf was a massive nerf so much so that the M20 basically disappeared from use after that and is rarely used now. The main reason why the M20 was good was because you could get 2 of them to inflict MP bleed that was not only cost effective fuel wise vs Stuart but was better than a single stuart while offering 2 bazooka vehicle crew squads which were useful at all stages of the game compared to a Stuart which has a 5 minute window of usefulness.

It definitely was a big nerf, but it is still being used. Just look at how Incauna plays USF. m20 into Stuart into Sherman, possibly E8. I even got rekt several times as OST by guys who used m20 really well. Pak40 seemed to miss way to much shots in those games tho.

Personally I'm not a fan of the how faction is played and performs. It is definitely not weak, but compared to OKW, OST and SOV it is way too hard and punishing. And in team games it is the worst faction, imo. Yes, you can go half-flaccid builds like with pathfinders, that only work while blobbing and only if the enemy is outnumbered. Else they melt like butter.
17 Sep 2021, 17:09 PM
#166
avatar of general_gawain

Posts: 905

I do find it very challenging to play versus spios + kubels to bleed USF from the start while having good map control with OKW. It is especially effective vs USF PF build but strong vs Rifle build too. Playing this tactic with OKW myself and waiting for a player who shows up to counter it without endless bleeding until USF gets sufficient AT.

I thought about giving a doctrinal answer at least. While Assgrens have sprint right from the start (Oorah too, but Cons are less powerful at short range) Fire Up comes with Cpt/Lt build. Maybe granting Fire up from the start too would give USF some doctrinal counterplay to Kubel kiting and would make spios+Kubels less of a no-brainer build. E8 commander could use a small buff after all since the E8 rework didn't worked out that great (Imo the reason is that its AI damage is still too low to replace M4A3/Jackson combo).
18 Sep 2021, 19:08 PM
#167
avatar of FelixTHM

Posts: 503 | Subs: 1



That Bazooka nerf was a massive nerf so much so that the M20 basically disappeared from use after that and is rarely used now. The main reason why the M20 was good was because you could get 2 of them to inflict MP bleed that was not only cost effective fuel wise vs Stuart but was better than a single stuart while offering 2 bazooka vehicle crew squads which were useful at all stages of the game compared to a Stuart which has a 5 minute window of usefulness.

What is Stuart going to do vs Panzer IV? Nothing but Blind and hope it escapes however the 2 Bazooka squads could actually do something.

USF is ammo starved. Sure you can make the Vehicle Crew come out and give them Bazookas now but if the M20 dies then you just threw away AMMO on nothing which is why no one does that. The Ammo saved from the Bazooka was so huge that the M20 was used in almost every USF build and you saw the M20 every match. This meant you can get bars, drop an extra mine. No amount of buffs to the M20 made up for how massive of a nerf that was to USF which is why its a rare sight today despite it being one of the few decent things USF has.


m20 is still incredibly common at higher skill bands because it is a very good vehicle. The only reason it isn't used 100% of the time is because rushing Stuart to bully enemy 222s/flak HTs is of huge strategic value, whereas in the past the m20 was so batshit OP that it could simply force a 222 or even Luchs/Puma (which cost more manpower and 3.5 times as much fuel) away with the zook crew. Basically it came out at an earlier timing, cost less, could lay super mines, and could defeat all Axis light vehicles. It's insane how these one-faction Allied fanatics can think that the old m20 was even remotely acceptable in design.
19 Sep 2021, 10:04 AM
#168
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3465 | Subs: 1



m20 is still incredibly common at higher skill bands because it is a very good vehicle. The only reason it isn't used 100% of the time is because rushing Stuart to bully enemy 222s/flak HTs is of huge strategic value, whereas in the past the m20 was so batshit OP that it could simply force a 222 or even Luchs/Puma (which cost more manpower and 3.5 times as much fuel) away with the zook crew. Basically it came out at an earlier timing, cost less, could lay super mines, and could defeat all Axis light vehicles. It's insane how these one-faction Allied fanatics can think that the old m20 was even remotely acceptable in design.


M20 went extent when they nerfed it (doesn't mean the unit didn't need a nerf at that time). it wasn't only the zook that's been nerfed at that time, also timing and M20 was expensive for a light vehicle. The unit went back when they finally decided to decrease its price and improve its performance.

Before that, M20 was that good because Lieutenant didn't had the zook and Stuart was a captain's unit.

And lol about your rant, There was no way you could kill a 222, a Luch or a Puma with a M20 unless the player was dumb enough to dive you 1/2 life.
20 Sep 2021, 10:00 AM
#169
avatar of FelixTHM

Posts: 503 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Sep 2021, 10:04 AMEsxile


M20 went extent when they nerfed it (doesn't mean the unit didn't need a nerf at that time). it wasn't only the zook that's been nerfed at that time, also timing and M20 was expensive for a light vehicle. The unit went back when they finally decided to decrease its price and improve its performance.

Before that, M20 was that good because Lieutenant didn't had the zook and Stuart was a captain's unit.

And lol about your rant, There was no way you could kill a 222, a Luch or a Puma with a M20 unless the player was dumb enough to dive you 1/2 life.



To catch an m20 you have to dive and chase very deep, which all but guaranteed a snare on the LV and a follow-up kill with the zook crew. Either that or your 222 chases the m20 until a riflemen squad is near, and then is forced to back off and let the m20 live because of the threat of zooks. We're not talking about rank 2000 plays where the m20 stands still and gets shot by Puma 3 times and then the crew helplessly tries to chase the Puma. We're talking about the m20 using its formula 1 speed to get away after the first shot connects or after the Luchs comes into view and escaping to where you could easily support it. I literally never lost a single m20 to LVs during that period. In fact I still don't, I usually lose it when I get too greedy and get fausted or run over a mine.

Being able to get a zook squad EXACTLY where you needed it to fight off the LV, without teching weapon racks(at a timing where I wouldn't have teched weapon racks yet) and without even having to spend muni was simply beyond OP.
20 Sep 2021, 10:31 AM
#170
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3465 | Subs: 1




To catch an m20 you have to dive and chase very deep, which all but guaranteed a snare on the LV and a follow-up kill with the zook crew. Either that or your 222 chases the m20 until a riflemen squad is near, and then is forced to back off and let the m20 live because of the threat of zooks. We're not talking about rank 2000 plays where the m20 stands still and gets shot by Puma 3 times and then the crew helplessly tries to chase the Puma. We're talking about the m20 using its formula 1 speed to get away after the first shot connects or after the Luchs comes into view and escaping to where you could easily support it. I literally never lost a single m20 to LVs during that period. In fact I still don't, I usually lose it when I get too greedy and get fausted or run over a mine.

Being able to get a zook squad EXACTLY where you needed it to fight off the LV, without teching weapon racks(at a timing where I wouldn't have teched weapon racks yet) and without even having to spend muni was simply beyond OP.


Same goes for any light vehicle, nothing special about the M20. Zook gimmick was there because unlike any other light vehicle the m20 .50 was harmless vs anything not on foot AND because at that time USF relied on vet1 to get access to Atnade which could come much later than a m20.
The m20 became too good along the various changes to the game reducing early game power spike to every factions, and they nerfed it too much to the point nobody used it for quite some time. Too late, too expensive and out of date stats.
Pip
20 Sep 2021, 13:06 PM
#171
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1580

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Sep 2021, 10:31 AMEsxile

Zook gimmick was there because unlike any other light vehicle the m20 .50 was harmless vs anything not on foot.


I mean, the 223, 251, 250, various allied halftracks/scout cars/etc also do nothing to anything not on foot. The M20 is hardly unique in that regard, and it doesn't really justify it having a free bazooka.
20 Sep 2021, 15:49 PM
#172
avatar of thekessvn

Posts: 102

According to US doctrine, M20 crews can bring at mine, zoo to ambush enemies armor force while they doing rcon mission.
In game, M20 crews had zoo so they could actually defend against Ost armor car do that M20 can hunting sniper ( very hard task ).
21 Sep 2021, 16:41 PM
#173
avatar of y3ivan

Posts: 156

M20 cost 20 fuel. The thing is, USF could get the M20 earlier (3mins) to counter OST sniper and generally causing a nuisance to OST infantry MP bleed. This will cause the OST player to effectively go for 222 to counter M20. This generally fit the USF aggressive strategy.

M20 isnt capable of counter 222 alone even with the zook crew. the problem is cause by players abusing the decrew/recrew the M20 with the zook that cause the problem to the 222 AI tracking.

Once M20 pass the 10min gap, its became a glorified spotter or an expensive zook RE squad. M20 really have a tiny window to shine between 3mins to 10mins.

Since the current LT tech which unlocked both M20 & M3 stuart. Most person will gravitate towards M3 stuart, cos it can do M20 job and better.

anyway this is way too off topic. This is more of the current USF tech issue
27 Sep 2021, 03:15 AM
#174
avatar of FelixTHM

Posts: 503 | Subs: 1

Moving back to the USF MP bleed issue I do like the idea of a reinforce cost reduction similar to Ost T4, which only gets unlocked with all 3 Officers.

Makes back-teching for AT guns less painful as well, which does mitigate one of the worst parts about USF (especially in 1v1).
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