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USF and MP bleed

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9 Aug 2021, 04:51 AM
#1
avatar of y3ivan

Posts: 119

I have notice that USF struggle with MP especially during mid and late game. The late game situation is even worst if USF player did poorly mid game. This make USF player have to pick and choose the fights where trading MP with axis player, this results to blobbing.

This kind of situation happens often in 1v1 and 2v2 and rarely on 3v3 or 4v4.

Historical perspective, USF does not have any manpower shortages whatsoever during the war and i find it odd that OKW player float MP far more often than USF and soviets. OKW MP float is another issue not to be discussed here.

From my general analysis,
1.USF faction base infantry/support weapons has fairly high popcap requirements, even teching for LT, CAPT, MJR requires popcap. This lead to smaller army size.
2. USF support weapons squad reinforcement cost is way too high.
3. rear echelon - worst base infantry in the game for 200mp 5pop. I dont see the purpose of having them other than bunker and tanktraps (green cover)
9 Aug 2021, 05:22 AM
#2
avatar of C3 TOOTH

Posts: 167

I saw late game Paratroop/Ranger spam is effective. Honestly they're the best elite in the game.
Ranger whos very tough and can hold 3 Zook.
Paratrooper is 6men with assault tactic that can instantly delete any squad. or double M1919.

The tough part is you have to build at least 2 RM to fight early game -> Officer. If you're able to keep these squads. Go to Elite is gonna be MP starve.

Though USF mainly denitely have advantage over Axis's one. Especially a Rear & an officer have smoke (that even late come with Major).
9 Aug 2021, 07:43 AM
#3
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 2195

I saw late game Paratroop/Ranger spam is effective. Honestly they're the best elite in the game.
Ranger whos very tough and can hold 3 Zook.
Paratrooper is 6men with assault tactic that can instantly delete any squad. or double M1919.

The tough part is you have to build at least 2 RM to fight early game -> Officer. If you're able to keep these squads. Go to Elite is gonna be MP starve.

Though USF mainly denitely have advantage over Axis's one. Especially a Rear & an officer have smoke (that even late come with Major).


this. these squads are way to good.

they roll over everthing...delete squads and armor like flys
9 Aug 2021, 19:29 PM
#4
avatar of Descolata

Posts: 468

Kite with P-4s while spotting with mainlines to kill the elite infantry. P-4s have incredible AI on the main gun, just kill those insanely expensive elite units. Zooks do not have the range. Use MG-42/34 as well, as they WILL suppress those blobs if its A-moved. Or hit it with Shock Arty.

Its the same way Allies deals with Ober blobs. Elite Infantry blobs are a blight.

Historicity isn't really a good reason for balance changes here, the MP could very well be the logistical cost. US had money to throw at the problem.

USF is expected to use their VERY potent LVs to minimize MP bleed in the mid game. Late game everyone bleeds like crazy, and if you are not bleeding your opponent, you WILL lose. Get a Calliope, Pershing, or Dozer/ed Sherman. Or an elite infantry blob. Yea, that means in team games you're probably playing Urban Assault.

Generally, I find the bleed mid-late is due to fighting high AI armor with high price mainlines. The P-4 and Brummbar really slap, with huge 80 dmg areas and pretty solid precision. This shows up early if you don't break the Axis MG lines, so OST can float the MP for fuel caches. Veto Redball Express, and learn to deeeeep flank enemy positions.
10 Aug 2021, 09:37 AM
#5
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 2195

Kite with P-4s while spotting with mainlines to kill the elite infantry. P-4s have incredible AI on the main gun, just kill those insanely expensive elite units. Zooks do not have the range. Use MG-42/34 as well, as they WILL suppress those blobs if its A-moved. Or hit it with Shock Arty.

Its the same way Allies deals with Ober blobs. Elite Infantry blobs are a blight.

Historicity isn't really a good reason for balance changes here, the MP could very well be the logistical cost. US had money to throw at the problem.

USF is expected to use their VERY potent LVs to minimize MP bleed in the mid game. Late game everyone bleeds like crazy, and if you are not bleeding your opponent, you WILL lose. Get a Calliope, Pershing, or Dozer/ed Sherman. Or an elite infantry blob. Yea, that means in team games you're probably playing Urban Assault.

Generally, I find the bleed mid-late is due to fighting high AI armor with high price mainlines. The P-4 and Brummbar really slap, with huge 80 dmg areas and pretty solid precision. This shows up early if you don't break the Axis MG lines, so OST can float the MP for fuel caches. Veto Redball Express, and learn to deeeeep flank enemy positions.


all this tips end mostly like like this:

you have p4 to kite? USF has jacksons behind blobbs.
you have MG to stop blobbs? USF has caliope in the back to insta delte your teamweapons and infantry.
10 Aug 2021, 14:50 PM
#6
avatar of Descolata

Posts: 468

Thats why OKW commonly defaults to Ober blob. Insta deletes stuff.

It still amazes me the Calliope is only on 2 commanders, of which 1 is basically never played. Its effectively part of the roster in team games due to how necessary it is (and how cohesive UA is).

With the P-4, potshots do work, even with TDs shooting you. It has a GREAT chance to kill on opening shot. Otherwise, use Rocket Arty, the one and true counter to fat blobs.
10 Aug 2021, 17:54 PM
#7
avatar of Rocket

Posts: 643

I saw late game Paratroop/Ranger spam is effective. Honestly they're the best elite in the game.
Ranger whos very tough and can hold 3 Zook.
Paratrooper is 6men with assault tactic that can instantly delete any squad. or double M1919.

The tough part is you have to build at least 2 RM to fight early game -> Officer. If you're able to keep these squads. Go to Elite is gonna be MP starve.

Though USF mainly denitely have advantage over Axis's one. Especially a Rear & an officer have smoke (that even late come with Major).


Paratrooper and Ranger spam is not effective. They are expensive and can be easily punished late game by axis rocket arty since they ALWAYS have access to it. Rangers are a little cheaper and seen people zook spam them, but its really not that effective and super easy to punish as I said when axis can always get rocket arty and if its 3v3 or 4v4 they WILL ALWAYS get multiple rocket arty.
10 Aug 2021, 17:58 PM
#8
avatar of Rocket

Posts: 643



all this tips end mostly like like this:

you have p4 to kite? USF has jacksons behind blobbs.
you have MG to stop blobbs? USF has caliope in the back to insta delte your teamweapons and infantry.


AHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA

right when okw hands down have stuka the best support wep deleter in the game and ost have werfer. but your MGS can actually pen blobs effectively when no allied ones do bar maybe the vickers earlier game thats about it and it can only pen 2 squads being microed.
10 Aug 2021, 21:01 PM
#9
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3459 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post9 Aug 2021, 04:51 AMy3ivan
1.USF faction base infantry/support weapons has fairly high popcap requirements, even teching for LT, CAPT, MJR requires popcap. This lead to smaller army size.


The issue isn't the pop cap, it's the stock army's generally large target size combined with no mainline sandbags and lack of ranged DPS. You basically have to always move into your opponent's units as if you're using assault squads and you suffer a lot from it.


jump backJump back to quoted post9 Aug 2021, 04:51 AMy3ivan
2. USF support weapons squad reinforcement cost is way too high.


Not quite, non-issue imo. Now if you wanna talk about the teching costs to get them, that's another discussion.


jump backJump back to quoted post9 Aug 2021, 04:51 AMy3ivan
3. rear echelon - worst base infantry in the game for 200mp 5pop. I dont see the purpose of having them other than bunker and tanktraps (green cover)


Disagree, REs aren't that bad. They put down the green cover your desperately need and can come in clutch early with volley fire. They can be a decent weapon platform later (zook/M1919/BAR/pickup). They're honestly fine.


I think USF's core issues are

1. No sniper counter and you get just 1 vehicle soft counter that gets absolutely mauled in a real game by 222, camo&sprint and snare, tellers and 19range fausts if it dives too deep to chase the sniper.
2. Lack of ranged play in your engagements. Your only stock option is to rely on .50cals to keep the enemy at range and stop enemy LMG blobs from shredding your inf that's out in the open. Pack howies used to help but they got overnerfed.
3. Captain sidetech for an AT gun is very expensive and not worth the vet 0 M1. The M1 in general is in a very weird spot. USF would probably be better off if it got converted to a 6pdr clone but that's a long discussion and it's probably too late in the game's lifespan for this.
4. LT being the only viable tech decision alongside a LV means you are going to struggle with the stock M4 against a stock P4, especially vs a P4J. Zooks will usually bleed before they can even fire and sideteching for an AT gun isn't very rewarding as mentioned in #3. Unless you are in a comfortable situation, the 1st medium vs medium fight is usually with USF on the back foot.
5. Captain tier has become too weak with the pack howitzer nerf. AAHT is good but it's also your only suppression platform and it dies in 2 hits until vet HP bonus, meaning you don't have .50cals to deal with LMG blobs and elite squads. Pack howies are very expensive and harder to justify with the nerf. M1 is ok but generally not as good as zis/pak/6pdr. Probably better than the raketen at least.


What I'd do to USF is
1) Nerf snipers.
2) Revert some of the nerfed pack howitzer performance.
3) Slightly lower close DPS of rifles and officers and slightly increase their mid range DPS.
4) Make major an optional unit instead of what he is now (not sure with voice lines and coding).
5) Probably make the M1 a 6pdr clone.
Vaz
11 Aug 2021, 09:38 AM
#10
avatar of Vaz

Posts: 1100

I don't think it's a fair comparison to use doctrinal USF weapons in comparison to standard okw armies. I play infantry commander and don't get either the airborne troops or the coliope. So it isn't something you will always face as axis.

The topic here of MP bleed. I think OKW is mostly responsible for this bleed. I wrote up a whole topic about this earlier and it comes down to efficiency and scale. OKW units are extremely cheap for how much efficiency they bring to the player. It's not hard for you to get a minimum 2-1 kill ratio in infantry combat, so even if it costs you 40mp to reinforce your okw soldier, you are going to win the economic battle. 2-1 is generous too, using the stronger soldiers you can easily get much higher ratios.

Because Obers are non-doctrinal, a USF player can count on ALWAYS being up against an elite infantry, and model for model rifles are not viable economic challenge for obers. You must outnumber them at least 3-1, depending on veterencies. I faced a vet5 ober squad and 3-1 was not enough to even drop 1 model in most battles.

With vehicles being the only viable equalizer here and USF not holding the vehicle advantage over anyone, you must makeup for the gap in player skill solely, if you do not have a doctrinal solution. If you choose to engage with infantry, you will inevitably lose the mp war.
11 Aug 2021, 10:30 AM
#11
avatar of oootto92

Posts: 177

You get so many sources of smoke as USF it's almost as if you are meant to use it.

Having strongest CQC ability out of all the mainline infantry is also something that is strong.

If only someone could combine these two strengths into a strategy of how to take engagements as USF...
11 Aug 2021, 11:23 AM
#12
avatar of Rocket

Posts: 643



The issue isn't the pop cap, it's the stock army's generally large target size combined with no mainline sandbags and lack of ranged DPS. You basically have to always move into your opponent's units as if you're using assault squads and you suffer a lot from it.




Not quite, non-issue imo. Now if you wanna talk about the teching costs to get them, that's another discussion.




Disagree, REs aren't that bad. They put down the green cover your desperately need and can come in clutch early with volley fire. They can be a decent weapon platform later (zook/M1919/BAR/pickup). They're honestly fine.


I think USF's core issues are

1. No sniper counter and you get just 1 vehicle soft counter that gets absolutely mauled in a real game by 222, camo&sprint and snare, tellers and 19range fausts if it dives too deep to chase the sniper.
2. Lack of ranged play in your engagements. Your only stock option is to rely on .50cals to keep the enemy at range and stop enemy LMG blobs from shredding your inf that's out in the open. Pack howies used to help but they got overnerfed.
3. Captain sidetech for an AT gun is very expensive and not worth the vet 0 M1. The M1 in general is in a very weird spot. USF would probably be better off if it got converted to a 6pdr clone but that's a long discussion and it's probably too late in the game's lifespan for this.
4. LT being the only viable tech decision alongside a LV means you are going to struggle with the stock M4 against a stock P4, especially vs a P4J. Zooks will usually bleed before they can even fire and sideteching for an AT gun isn't very rewarding as mentioned in #3. Unless you are in a comfortable situation, the 1st medium vs medium fight is usually with USF on the back foot.
5. Captain tier has become too weak with the pack howitzer nerf. AAHT is good but it's also your only suppression platform and it dies in 2 hits until vet HP bonus, meaning you don't have .50cals to deal with LMG blobs and elite squads. Pack howies are very expensive and harder to justify with the nerf. M1 is ok but generally not as good as zis/pak/6pdr. Probably better than the raketen at least.


What I'd do to USF is
1) Nerf snipers.
2) Revert some of the nerfed pack howitzer performance.
3) Slightly lower close DPS of rifles and officers and slightly increase their mid range DPS.
4) Make major an optional unit instead of what he is now (not sure with voice lines and coding).
5) Probably make the M1 a 6pdr clone.


Best written post i have read in a very long time, and finaly mentions the face that all usf infantry is playing a losing game because of having to get into viable range first. One could also say because of that you have a much better chance of losing a squad because of having to close the gap and taking unpredictable model drops otw, and then are retreating vs mainline long range infantry, basicly ill put it this way ive seen a silver of health 1 model gren or volk squad have to retreat through a rifle squad and odss are pretty good they will live, sliver of ho rifle squad no chance in hell

Also i wouldnt use REs to make green cover anymore they purposely changed it so you cant build tank traps against the flag post and they will just use it against you, your more than likely just making green cover for them and once they get in green cover its not going to be good
11 Aug 2021, 11:31 AM
#13
avatar of Rocket

Posts: 643

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Aug 2021, 09:38 AMVaz
I don't think it's a fair comparison to use doctrinal USF weapons in comparison to standard okw armies. I play infantry commander and don't get either the airborne troops or the coliope. So it isn't something you will always face as axis.

The topic here of MP bleed. I think OKW is mostly responsible for this bleed. I wrote up a whole topic about this earlier and it comes down to efficiency and scale. OKW units are extremely cheap for how much efficiency they bring to the player. It's not hard for you to get a minimum 2-1 kill ratio in infantry combat, so even if it costs you 40mp to reinforce your okw soldier, you are going to win the economic battle. 2-1 is generous too, using the stronger soldiers you can easily get much higher ratios.

Because Obers are non-doctrinal, a USF player can count on ALWAYS being up against an elite infantry, and model for model rifles are not viable economic challenge for obers. You must outnumber them at least 3-1, depending on veterencies. I faced a vet5 ober squad and 3-1 was not enough to even drop 1 model in most battles.

With vehicles being the only viable equalizer here and USF not holding the vehicle advantage over anyone, you must makeup for the gap in player skill solely, if you do not have a doctrinal solution. If you choose to engage with infantry, you will inevitably lose the mp war.


Exactly.

The worse although a doctrine is Pfusilers blob at least in 3v3 they are completely broken even with airborne it is only a matter of time before they become indestructible, unless you went calliope and even then with a pull up barrage ypud be lucky to actually wipe a vet 3 or plus fusiler squad

So basicly what always happens with okw wethers its obers fusilers or falls the longer the game last the more mp you bleed and the less they take with indestructible highly effecient squads not to mention the non doct squad wiper they will have
11 Aug 2021, 11:42 AM
#14
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1092

You get so many sources of smoke as USF it's almost as if you are meant to use it.

Having strongest CQC ability out of all the mainline infantry is also something that is strong.

If only someone could combine these two strengths into a strategy of how to take engagements as USF...


Buying mortar just for the sake of smoke is a fastest way to lose. It won't do anything in any game mode except maybe 4v4. Not a good unit to buy early just for smoke because it will cost you a lot of territory control and the mortar itself is quite weak. Especially if you go for Cap. and buy a pak howi. It's better to have dual pakhowi (Storm is very much in the right that the pakhowi was overnerfed -- it needs back to 5 man and AOE improvement) than mortar + pak.

Nades are a sidetech, and in 1v1 and 2v2, most expensive. Also, REs fire it and you usually need to lay some green cover with them rather than let them run around smoking things.
After the tech, you get LT/Cap for the smoke and that's fine, but by that time, you need the fuel for the fast LV.

Stormjaeger laid out arguments, and quite well at that, about the problems of USF, with which I agree.
11 Aug 2021, 12:42 PM
#15
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3246 | Subs: 1

Balance team made sure USF do not have bleeding unit anymore in their stock roster with the nerf on pak and scott.
11 Aug 2021, 15:26 PM
#16
avatar of DerKuhlmann

Posts: 427

Double bar riflemen shreds every non elite infantry in close promixity. The problem is they have to get there. And rangers,paras shreds every elite infantry in close combat.

Thats why usf have mortar, infantry and scott smoke.

Also if your good at microing vehicles, the stuart is a treat.

The only problem is rocket arty, which can be defended very easy from axis side.
11 Aug 2021, 16:28 PM
#17
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3246 | Subs: 1

Double bar riflemen shreds every non elite infantry in close promixity. The problem is they have to get there. And rangers,paras shreds every elite infantry in close combat.

Thats why usf have mortar, infantry and scott smoke.

Also if your good at microing vehicles, the stuart is a treat.

The only problem is rocket arty, which can be defended very easy from axis side.


Since both Axis faction have superior stock elite infantry, don't know if it is relevant.
11 Aug 2021, 20:58 PM
#18
avatar of RoastinGhost

Posts: 410 | Subs: 1

The USF Ambulance has the same (fairly slow) healing speed as Tommies. I wonder if a slight increase would be warranted? Maybe in the base sector only? It seems pretty common for USF squads to have to wait in base for entities to heal.
11 Aug 2021, 21:25 PM
#19
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1121

What if their RM reinforce cost gets lowered? Via tech or straight of the bat.

Since they need to get close and dont have long range inf stock and the pack howi and scott got nerfed. I dont see a problem here.

Other units have as well, pgrens dont follow the formula just as other squads dont. Its a large part of what makes prgrens and others viable.
11 Aug 2021, 23:03 PM
#20
avatar of Lady Xenarra

Posts: 745

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Aug 2021, 16:28 PMEsxile


Since both Axis faction have superior stock elite infantry, don't know if it is relevant.

Not really relevant imho as one is locked behind Tier 4 (fighting for your life with volks) and the other you purchase after getting a standing army of grens/Osttruppen/MG(s).

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