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USF and MP bleed

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14 Aug 2021, 06:23 AM
#41
avatar of jagd wölfe

Posts: 1660


I agree. However, my suggestion brings their late game closer to Volks, you suggestion the early game

The design wise best thing in my opinion would be to give them 4-5 G43s, but make those worse(yes, yet another G43 I know). In the end, a full squad would still have high moving DPS, but they are susceptible to model losses. Currently, Pfusies are not until they lose their fourth model. Damage wise it does not matter as much if a 3 men or 6 men squad is moving. They are a large squad with fairly concentrated DPS, especially concentrated moving DPS. This should be somehow kitigated, either by allowing counterplay via model drops or, if not possible, nerf their overall DPS a bit.

Yes, this would also be a viable solution. I would say it's rather unelegant because it creates an entirely completely different G43 that is even less closer to Wehrmacht G43 than the original Panzerfus G43, but it would work.
The problem is that Wehrmacht G43s are made for 4 men squads that would actually lose dps at every model loss after the first, and OKW is already full of 4 men squads
Alternatively it could be made to get Jeager command squad stats and further increased in cost and reinforce cost. This would standardize Panzerfusiliers G43 with the Grenadier G43, that still has the same modifiers on the move. It would still have 2 extra models, and slighly better g43s, but will bleed 30 manpower per model loss and the lower starting RA (0.91 instead of 1) is quite convincingly balanced by the higher build time and early cost. That would require some toning down of veterancy, but it's gonna remove a g43 variant and keep thetradeoff of slower start compared to volksgrenadiers.
25 Aug 2021, 16:02 PM
#42
avatar of C3 TOOTH

Posts: 176

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Aug 2021, 17:54 PMRocket


Paratrooper and Ranger spam is not effective. They are expensive and can be easily punished late game by axis rocket arty since they ALWAYS have access to it. Rangers are a little cheaper and seen people zook spam them, but its really not that effective and super easy to punish as I said when axis can always get rocket arty and if its 3v3 or 4v4 they WILL ALWAYS get multiple rocket arty.


Ranger in Pershing is a thing, they're not really a problem.

Ranger in Urban assault is another story. You know the ability that smoke in a large zone and Rangers zook just sprint through your infantry line directly into your tank/arty behind and instantly delete a Panther with 9 zooks?

What are you gonna do with 3 Rangers 9 Zook & 2-3 Calliope behind?
Counter with PzGren - Callioped.
Brumbar - dies after 1st shot.
Werfer is MUCH MORE easier to dodge than Calliope, because of how short time Calliope rockets fly, with 24 rockets, vs Werfer long time rockets traveling with 10 rockets
25 Aug 2021, 16:47 PM
#43
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1460



Ranger in Pershing is a thing, they're not really a problem.

Ranger in Urban assault is another story. You know the ability that smoke in a large zone and Rangers zook just sprint through your infantry line directly into your tank/arty behind and instantly delete a Panther with 9 zooks?

What are you gonna do with 3 Rangers 9 Zook & 2-3 Calliope behind?
Counter with PzGren - Callioped.
Brumbar - dies after 1st shot.
Werfer is MUCH MORE easier to dodge than Calliope, because of how short time Calliope rockets fly, with 24 rockets, vs Werfer long time rockets traveling with 10 rockets


If 3 ranger spam is giving you problems then it's a L2P issue. Try it against decent opponents and you'll see what happens
Vaz
28 Aug 2021, 15:29 PM
#44
avatar of Vaz

Posts: 1145

I've noticed that 4v4 games are going on longer now. Usually things would come to a close at the 1 hour mark. Now outskilled axis players are able to prolong games up to 1:15. When allies are outskilled you can't get a 45 minute match very often, but it depends on how big the gap is of course. My last was 3axis and 1 ai vs 4 allied and it goes to 1:11.
28 Aug 2021, 20:58 PM
#45
avatar of donofsandiego

Posts: 612

you have p4 to kite? USF has jacksons behind blobbs


Lmao at this. No. Jacksons are 120FU to unlock the tier plus 145FU to build the actual unit. You have plenty of time to make use of the P4 before the Jackson comes out, and when the Jackson comes out to counter P4, you still have the Brummbar that tanks more and does the AI job even better.
28 Aug 2021, 23:12 PM
#46
avatar of MassaDerek

Posts: 166



Lmao at this. No. Jacksons are 120FU to unlock the tier plus 145FU to build the actual unit. You have plenty of time to make use of the P4 before the Jackson comes out, and when the Jackson comes out to counter P4, you still have the Brummbar that tanks more and does the AI job even better.

Thats funny because ullumulu doesn't even build P4 or tries to kite with a P4 he doesn't build, he stalls for Panther/Brum whilst blobbing 3PZgren with shreck and a Gren against my KV8 lol
And yet he complains his team is shit lmfao just shows you how low the skill ceiling for axis players really is
Vaz
29 Aug 2021, 02:38 AM
#47
avatar of Vaz

Posts: 1145

even if you have the skill, why use it when you can just run through the opponents fire like a GI Joe? For you young people that don't get, their enemy "cobra", has better accuracy than allies and can't land a single hit on a Joe.
29 Aug 2021, 19:40 PM
#48
avatar of Grim

Posts: 1043


Thats funny because ullumulu doesn't even build P4 or tries to kite with a P4 he doesn't build, he stalls for Panther/Brum whilst blobbing 3PZgren with shreck and a Gren against my KV8 lol
And yet he complains his team is shit lmfao just shows you how low the skill ceiling for axis players really is


You do realise this describes 97.53% of the axis playerbase XD
29 Aug 2021, 19:49 PM
#49
avatar of jagd wölfe

Posts: 1660

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Aug 2021, 19:40 PMGrim


You do realise this describes 97.53% of the axis playerbase XD

Or at least the 4 digit rankers you face
Vaz
29 Aug 2021, 19:50 PM
#50
avatar of Vaz

Posts: 1145

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Aug 2021, 19:40 PMGrim


You do realise this describes 97.53% of the axis playerbase XD


yea, that's why pg's would get murdered previously. Then people would complain they suck and now you need to blast an entire armory at them to make them retreat.
29 Aug 2021, 20:20 PM
#51
avatar of Grim

Posts: 1043


Or at least the 4 digit rankers you face


Thank you, Jagd Wolfe. Very cool.
29 Aug 2021, 20:41 PM
#52
avatar of jagd wölfe

Posts: 1660

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Aug 2021, 20:20 PMGrim


Thank you, Jagd Wolfe. Very cool.

No problem, Grim.
30 Aug 2021, 05:32 AM
#53
avatar of MassaDerek

Posts: 166


Or at least the 4 digit rankers you face

Hes rank 300 in 2v2/3v3 OST.
The skill ceiling for Axis is VERY LOW.And yet axis players always manage to be trash
31 Aug 2021, 08:41 AM
#54
avatar of Applejack

Posts: 353

I think the biggest issue is like Vaz said the efficiency of OKW bleed. There reinforce is all over the place but as a percentage they are on the lower side compared to other factions.

I will put the percentage to fully reinforce based on purchase price but I can put cost if someone wants.
OKW:
Unit %
Sturm 30
Volks 38.4
Fussi 37
JLI 37.5
Fall 31.8
Ober 35.2

Ost:
Pio 37.5
Gren 37.5
Ostr 40
PGren 30
JCS 40
AssG 37.1
Storm 29

Allies

RE 34.5
Rifle 40
LT 40
CPT 40
AssE 40
Path 31
Rang 36.6
Para 38.9

Engi 37
Cons 41.6
T4 37.5
Penal 46.5
T4 43.1
Guard 37.5
Shock 41.6

So over the course of a game this leads to the OKW manpower float which directly allows for the blob to form and be maintained.

Edit: Added OST and a couple other units.
Looking at the % it makes sense for OST to have wonky reinforce for some units due to relying on support weapons more. However OKW is infantry heavy and the reinforce is to low for its mainline compared to the Allied faction. This means with equal deaths OKW will be able to save up to build more units while allies are just trying to keep Units fully reinforced. I think just increasing the reinforce cost for early units would solve several problems people are having with OKW blob. It would slow it down considerably while being a soft nerf to Fussie blob, VG blob with Obers.


This is an interesting take on the sustained MP bleed over time. I recall a time when reinforcing Obers costed 50MP.

I think its also important to note that Allies tend to have bigger squads while Axis have smaller squads leading to even more efficiency in terms of MP to power.
31 Aug 2021, 21:52 PM
#55
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

Something overlooked in the sustained bleed math is that fewer entities also means fewer targets.
Fewer targets means more enemy entities targeting the same model which in turn means greater chance of model drop.

This is an effect that snowballs as well.
A gren squad facing up against a con squad will have models targeted with additional enemy rifles, where the cons inversely will have at least 2 models that will not be targeted at a time.
31 Aug 2021, 22:21 PM
#56
avatar of Willy Pete

Posts: 205

Something overlooked in the sustained bleed math is that fewer entities also means fewer targets.
Fewer targets means more enemy entities targeting the same model which in turn means greater chance of model drop.

This is an effect that snowballs as well.
A gren squad facing up against a con squad will have models targeted with additional enemy rifles, where the cons inversely will have at least 2 models that will not be targeted at a time.

How is it overlooked? Grens have better accuracy than cons (except at cqc) along with higher dmg per shot

Riflemen bleed problems caused by needing to move towards their target imo. I never have bleed issues with USF when using LMG squads
31 Aug 2021, 23:40 PM
#57
avatar of Descolata

Posts: 486

The unfocused fire is normally not an issue as the game has a Focus Fire attribute for each squad, so they focus the same target. All infantry outside SMGs and Falls have Focus Fire on, so damage isnt spread accross the squad (not entirely, but effectively). The classic example is when Tommies had 16 damage rifles. They could somewhat consistently 1 shot a model (80hp). Then test Sturms or Shock Troops. Notice the targeted squad doesnt drop units till pretty low total squad health.

Axis gear has dramatically larger OHK radiuses than USF or UKF (Calliope is the exception and we all notice it, HE Sherman is close). This results in brutal bleed in any engagement vs the P-4, Brumbar, KT, SZF, Pwerfer. This means USF had to take 2 shots to consistently get models, which doesnt work great vs long faust, double either long AT (Pak 40) or retreatable AT (Pschreck blob or or Rak blob). When I mean smaller, I mean 30%+ smaller. This means only the HE Sherman, Pershing (still has a tiny OHK, but each shot hits hard), and Calliope can stop blobs consistently. Sherman and Perishing are hard countered by late game armor,Calliope is gated late and REALLY expensive. And it shows up in almost every USF 4v4.

UkF has similar issues, but the Cromwell has REALLY bad OHK and is just not efficient for value.

Soviets are fineish. Katy is pretty bad due to time between salvos, but its dirt cheap and Soviet Tanks hit REALLY HARD, with big OHK. The reason the KV-1 was nerfed out of the game, (more pop than a Panther is ludicrous) was its tankiness and the crazy 1.11 OHK radius of its gun.
Vaz
1 Sep 2021, 00:28 AM
#58
avatar of Vaz

Posts: 1145

Something overlooked in the sustained bleed math is that fewer entities also means fewer targets.
Fewer targets means more enemy entities targeting the same model which in turn means greater chance of model drop.

This is an effect that snowballs as well.
A gren squad facing up against a con squad will have models targeted with additional enemy rifles, where the cons inversely will have at least 2 models that will not be targeted at a time.


This sounds good on paper, it doesn't hold up in game, however. The rifles have cobra/stormtrooper accuracy, 60 bullets fired and 10 hit their target. If the accuracy was equal, then yea the larger allied squads would always win.

A single OKW player can concentrate enough infantry based anti-infantry to hold back 2 allied players, given that they aren't using elite infantry. That's because okw units hit their targets often, even without special weapons. When concentrated (blobbed, w/e you want to call it) there is no contest.

You couldn't win this so easily when obers were more expensive, that was supposed to be the limiter keeping them from becoming the main force(long gone). So they are more efficient fighters and according to the percentages to reinforce, they are cheaper too. They also used to take forever to reinforce, so if you lost models it actually had an impact on your map control capability. You couldn't just play like shit and keep reinforcing them like conscripts. You had to really think if you wanted to be it all on have them stand up to an allied blob. These days though, who cares? You're floating a huge amount of MP and you can quickly reinforce them in the field.

Elite allied units will eliminate the efficiency gains of okw or reduce the gap significantly. Paratroopers are especially capable. I'm sure commandos and shock troopers hold up well too. However, there is one really big problem with this. We again have allies tied to a doctrine to do something that axis can do without a doctrine. This isn't an asymetrical balance, it is a design imbalance. The allied factions should have had higher tier stock units on par with panzer grenadiers and obers.

However, to be fair, panzer grenadiers are very different from how they were introduced. They used to outright block bullets with body armor values, like shocks still do. That was removed and replaced with a received accuracy and I guess even later their target size was made tiny as well(?). The armor meant that you could get past it with small arms that had higher armor penetration values(like heavy machine guns). Now they just walk through the hmg(lel).

I'm not fully sure how the upkeep system works in coh2. I'm guessing they are pretty screwed. That's where I would place a higher burden on axis. A higher upkeep cost on these harder hitting units means they become harder to replace(no longer expendable). The current upkeep with the current fighting efficiency of axis units is too cost effective leading to axis floating mp and allies empty at equal skill levels across the majority(not the top tier best players, if it is I just don't know).

In case you axis players think this state is great, I can tell you some points of why it is not good for you.
  • You're going to have higher skilled allied players fighting lower ranked axis players(this is bad for the game as a whole, because new players are then discouraged and quit)
  • Moral on the allied side drops and people quit early, so if you like commanding tigers and panthers you will be robbed of this pleasure
  • When you do face players that last, they are going to be exceptionally skilled through these hard fought battles and instead of gradual changes through the ranks, you are going to have steep sudden changes in difficulty
  • For those of you that like a challenge and play axis, it will be degraded


2 Sep 2021, 01:44 AM
#59
avatar of y3ivan

Posts: 156

why not add squads size upgrade at T3 (major)? cost 100MP and 15 FU

riflemen 5men -> 6men, Reinforce cost 27MP -> 25MP
Rear echelon 4men -> 5men, Reinforce cost 23MP -> 20MP
HMG 4men -> 5men, Reinforce cost 22MP -> 18MP
57mm AT gun 4men -> 5men, Reinforce cost 22MP -> 18MP

Vaz
2 Sep 2021, 02:27 AM
#60
avatar of Vaz

Posts: 1145

It's not more men that's needed, it's more effective fighters. Throwing more bodies at elite stock AI doesn't really help.
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