Login

russian armor

USF Pathfinders need to be balanced

PAGES (8)down
28 Oct 2021, 17:56 PM
#81
avatar of lovendead

Posts: 28

Just move it to CP1, and its good
28 Oct 2021, 18:37 PM
#82
avatar of VonManteuffel

Posts: 85

That would be great...
28 Oct 2021, 18:40 PM
#83
avatar of Lady Xenarra

Posts: 885

USF has other docs than Pathfinders?! :faint: Not sure how ppl can justify a recon squad being spammed out like this as a full replacer for regular rifles. You can't play around 50 sight range 'mainline' inf. (They even get +10% sight range at vet 1!). MGs become worthless and Pathblob walks over your men early-to-mid. And I'm seeing triple Path builds everywhere. Even JLI is hard to spam due to the 1 CP requirement.

And then there's BAR Pathfinders. Why are they allowed to pickup weapons? Surely this goes against the idea that it's a recon squad and not a defeat-every-inf-except-Obers-and-maybe-upgraded-Falls-squad? I don't even like playing Ostheer but after seeing a streamer get rolled by them, I don't know what to say.

Alright we go old school 2014 gameplay where I flatten 1/2 the map to get at you and your Scooots Scooots
28 Oct 2021, 20:19 PM
#84
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3381 | Subs: 1

USF has other docs than Pathfinders?! :faint: Not sure how ppl can justify a recon squad being spammed out like this as a full replacer for regular rifles. You can't play around 50 sight range 'mainline' inf.

Does this even work in 1v1 or 2v2? Cause I've literally never seen this strat there. I have seen some ppl spam in 3v3, but never seen it work. Though lately I don't play that mode as much as I do 2s and 1s


And then there's BAR Pathfinders. Why are they allowed to pickup weapons? Surely this goes against the idea that it's a recon squad and not a defeat-every-inf-except-Obers-and-maybe-upgraded-Falls-squad?

I think Bar paths are horribly overrated. The droprate is enormous and if youre playing Airborne you can't afford to waste the muni

Again though, I can see it being stronger on larger maps. Blobs with bonus vision are not fun to deal with
28 Oct 2021, 20:35 PM
#85
avatar of Lady Xenarra

Posts: 885


Does this even work in 1v1 or 2v2? Cause I've literally never seen this strat there. I have seen some ppl spam in 3v3, but never seen it work. Though lately I don't play that mode as much as I do 2s and 1s

I can't speak for 2v2 as I don't play it. You'll have to ask the 1v1 experts what they think. I see it virtually every match involving USF in 3v3 to the point I assume they will use it. Usually by high ranked players, ie: ppl you can't just outplay 2x to defeat. One person accused me of maphacking because I saw his AT guns coming via Kubel vet I but was perfectly fine with his triple Paths seeing 70+% of my army for that match.


I think Bar paths are horribly overrated. The droprate is enormous and if youre playing Airborne you can't afford to waste the muni

Again though, I can see it being stronger on larger maps. Blobs with bonus vision are not fun to deal with

If you have map control and have bled the enemy hard on manpower because of their snipetastic combat profiles, the muni issues are greatly lessened. Maybe even getting a cache down early. Maybe I'm overestimating BAR Paths, maybe not. Either way that Pathblob is bad yes and practically screams Luchs/Flak HT buuuuuut they can just see the Flak HT so there's that. 222 doesn't really do much. Or they get an AT gun dropped on demand, at which point you can't do anything with your LVs/ med tanks/Ostwind if it is indeed an open map. So artillery, Tigers and Obers heavy!
29 Oct 2021, 00:57 AM
#86
avatar of TheGentlemenTroll

Posts: 1044 | Subs: 1


/



/


I can also vouch that pathfinders are significantly better in 3v3-4v4 especially with an AT. Since you can easily make up for a lot of pathfinder weaknesses with a teammate going regular mainlines on any of the allied faction.

29 Oct 2021, 02:45 AM
#87
avatar of rumartinez89

Posts: 513


I can't speak for 2v2 as I don't play it. You'll have to ask the 1v1 experts what they think. I see it virtually every match involving USF in 3v3 to the point I assume they will use it. Usually by high ranked players, ie: ppl you can't just outplay 2x to defeat. One person accused me of maphacking because I saw his AT guns coming via Kubel vet I but was perfectly fine with his triple Paths seeing 70+% of my army for that match.


If you have map control and have bled the enemy hard on manpower because of their snipetastic combat profiles, the muni issues are greatly lessened. Maybe even getting a cache down early. Maybe I'm overestimating BAR Paths, maybe not. Either way that Pathblob is bad yes and practically screams Luchs/Flak HT buuuuuut they can just see the Flak HT so there's that. 222 doesn't really do much. Or they get an AT gun dropped on demand, at which point you can't do anything with your LVs/ med tanks/Ostwind if it is indeed an open map. So artillery, Tigers and Obers heavy!


I think in 1v1 they are not as powerful due to their slow firing nature so to get the snipes going they need to blob which is not as easy to pull off since they are fragile/expensive/high reinforce. A Luchs rush would work great since they can hopefully chase down on retreat and it should have a bit of time before USF can call in AT gun unless they went captain. I'm thinking a luchs rush with either Falls or JLI can be devastating it just require people to get out of their comfort zone. Maybe a Battlegroup back tech to keep healing so that Pathfinder snipes dont get you.

In team games shit is broken. since their weaknesses can be easily overcome thru the power of teamwork. Also only 1 bar is really needed on them, its not that they are great its that it allows them to create their own snipe chances which are what they are balanced around(~40% health). With 2 bars they do it better but like someone said they can drop fairly quickly.

I would probably remove their ability to equip bars and give them some other upgrade. Maybe all snipers so it becomes extremely slow firing infantry that cannot operate on its own. Pushing it back to CP1 would make them irrelevant again unless they got buffed in another way.
29 Oct 2021, 04:25 AM
#88
avatar of Willy Pete

Posts: 178

Pathfinders are not OP. Blobbing just OP in team games. For every faction

Reinforce cost balances the squad unless ur amoving a horde and can avoid the rocket arty, brumbarr, etc.
29 Oct 2021, 08:28 AM
#89
avatar of Rocket

Posts: 723

I am done with the game for good if paths get nerfed. They have not changed paths in forever and now they need balanced. what a joke.
29 Oct 2021, 08:32 AM
#90
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13150 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Oct 2021, 08:28 AMRocket
I am done with the game for good if paths get nerfed. They have not changed paths in forever and now they need balanced. what a joke.

You are aware that Pathfinder used to CP 1 and IR Pathfinder used to be CP 2 right?
You are also aware that Pathfinders received a buff sniper in the previous patch right?
5 Nov 2021, 18:10 PM
#91
avatar of Kyle

Posts: 322


I can't speak for 2v2 as I don't play it. You'll have to ask the 1v1 experts what they think. I see it virtually every match involving USF in 3v3 to the point I assume they will use it. Usually by high ranked players, ie: ppl you can't just outplay 2x to defeat. One person accused me of maphacking because I saw his AT guns coming via Kubel vet I but was perfectly fine with his triple Paths seeing 70+% of my army for that match.


Well I can speak for 2vs2 on your behalf consider my team is level 17 with 7 replays on tightrope channel so I myself got some exp in high level 2vs2.

Usually my Axis team see this pattern:

1. Pathfinder x2 + Rifleman x1 OR Pathfinder x3
2. .50cal from Tier 2 OR airdrop for Pathfinder to pick up
3. Flak Halftrack
4. AT gun x1 or x2 + BAR upgrade for Pathfinder
5. M8 x2 or x3
6. M36 Jackson

And this is pure cancer build: with Panthfinder ready at 0CP, my Ostheer MG42 is useless because they already spot it before I can spot pathfinder and later in the game as Ostheer I would just bleed out from the M8 spam.

Tbh whenever my team play 2vs2 and I see (and feel) that the USF gonna play Pathfinder spam I'm just gonna switch side with my OKW mate so he can use JLI to counter this (They come out at 1CP, can detect camo unit + also got 50 sight + can snip the shit out of them). My mate usually mix JLI with Ober in order to kill this Pathfinder quickly.

So yeah, either my mate switch side and deal with USF or I say fork it and play a name match. As Ostheer player and at my current level, I'm not capable of dealing with this atm IF my enemies are good at abuse Pathfdiner spam in 2vs2.
5 Nov 2021, 21:40 PM
#92
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 2241

only bs abuser defend this pathfinder spam.
6 Nov 2021, 01:12 AM
#93
avatar of NorthWeapon
Donator 11

Posts: 593

Unit being in meta =/= unit OP

Panzerfusiliers has been meta forever. Not really an OP unit. Yes Pathfinders are used, but not because it is OP. Rather, the commander is great and its convenient to have pathfinders. Never have I used Pathfinders cuz I think they are soooo good and OP, neither have anyone I know.

Pathfinders are not even good first of all, cuz they drop models so easy. And there's no reason why it has to match Jaegers. Jaegers can snipe and sprint. They are different units.

Pathfinders are good early game cuz it makes sense for them as scout units to make beacons for paradrops.

Most of the people complaining about Pathfinders are complaining about losing or the stress of versing pathfinders, not that pathfinders are objectively overpowered. Most people on the forum are emotional and are not thinking about the game. People here are thinking about their own experience.
6 Nov 2021, 08:10 AM
#94
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1738

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Nov 2021, 18:10 PMKyle


Well I can speak for 2vs2 on your behalf consider my team is level 17 with 7 replays on tightrope channel so I myself got some exp in high level 2vs2.

Usually my Axis team see this pattern:

1. Pathfinder x2 + Rifleman x1 OR Pathfinder x3
2. .50cal from Tier 2 OR airdrop for Pathfinder to pick up
3. Flak Halftrack
4. AT gun x1 or x2 + BAR upgrade for Pathfinder
5. M8 x2 or x3
6. M36 Jackson

And this is pure cancer build: with Panthfinder ready at 0CP, my Ostheer MG42 is useless because they already spot it before I can spot pathfinder and later in the game as Ostheer I would just bleed out from the M8 spam.

Tbh whenever my team play 2vs2 and I see (and feel) that the USF gonna play Pathfinder spam I'm just gonna switch side with my OKW mate so he can use JLI to counter this (They come out at 1CP, can detect camo unit + also got 50 sight + can snip the shit out of them). My mate usually mix JLI with Ober in order to kill this Pathfinder quickly.

So yeah, either my mate switch side and deal with USF or I say fork it and play a name match. As Ostheer player and at my current level, I'm not capable of dealing with this atm IF my enemies are good at abuse Pathfdiner spam in 2vs2.


i am a low level 2v2 wehrboo
and i faced the exact same issue you stated. crazy accurate how you typed it out matches 100%.

pathfinders on arranged team are cancer. even rando Usf experienced with this build order are as deadly
impossible to play against even if you are similar ranked wehr and randoms.
6 Nov 2021, 08:20 AM
#95
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1738

USF has other docs than Pathfinders?! :faint: Not sure how ppl can justify a recon squad being spammed out like this as a full replacer for regular rifles. You can't play around 50 sight range 'mainline' inf. (They even get +10% sight range at vet 1!). MGs become worthless and Pathblob walks over your men early-to-mid. And I'm seeing triple Path builds everywhere. Even JLI is hard to spam due to the 1 CP requirement.

And then there's BAR Pathfinders. Why are they allowed to pickup weapons? Surely this goes against the idea that it's a recon squad and not a defeat-every-inf-except-Obers-and-maybe-upgraded-Falls-squad? I don't even like playing Ostheer but after seeing a streamer get rolled by them, I don't know what to say.

Alright we go old school 2014 gameplay where I flatten 1/2 the map to get at you and your Scooots Scooots


reduce base sight to 45 and we see how. down to 40 if we have to. and to be fair, we reduce JLI sight to 42, same as JCS since JLI cost more than PF

imo 50 sight blobs at cp0 simply walks all over early infantry. 55 sight blobs at ez vet1, no contest.

you try a fast light or med vehicle to counter, no luck with 55 sight ATG back line.

sniper have been nerfed, no reason for pathfinders to maintain that los.
6 Nov 2021, 14:40 PM
#96
avatar of VonManteuffel

Posts: 85

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Nov 2021, 18:10 PMKyle


Well I can speak for 2vs2 on your behalf consider my team is level 17 with 7 replays on tightrope channel so I myself got some exp in high level 2vs2.

Usually my Axis team see this pattern:

1. Pathfinder x2 + Rifleman x1 OR Pathfinder x3
2. .50cal from Tier 2 OR airdrop for Pathfinder to pick up
3. Flak Halftrack
4. AT gun x1 or x2 + BAR upgrade for Pathfinder
5. M8 x2 or x3
6. M36 Jackson

And this is pure cancer build: with Panthfinder ready at 0CP, my Ostheer MG42 is useless because they already spot it before I can spot pathfinder and later in the game as Ostheer I would just bleed out from the M8 spam.

Tbh whenever my team play 2vs2 and I see (and feel) that the USF gonna play Pathfinder spam I'm just gonna switch side with my OKW mate so he can use JLI to counter this (They come out at 1CP, can detect camo unit + also got 50 sight + can snip the shit out of them). My mate usually mix JLI with Ober in order to kill this Pathfinder quickly.

So yeah, either my mate switch side and deal with USF or I say fork it and play a name match. As Ostheer player and at my current level, I'm not capable of dealing with this atm IF my enemies are good at abuse Pathfdiner spam in 2vs2.


Same for me an my mate yesterday. We played pretty well in the beginning. We took out Clown Car from Sov player and got good map control. USF started with 3 Pathfinders. My Jägers could hardly fight them but with Luchs support, I had a small chance. But as soon as the AT gun was on the field, Luchs was useless. You cannot flank or attack anymore, just a waste of fuel. And then, few mins later, 3 Scotts were on the field. 2 of my Jägers got wiped out with single shots. GG, game over. This game pretty sucks right now and it has absolutely nothing to do with skill. Its just abusing a pretty bad balanced combo: Pathfinders + M8 Scott.

Making Pathfinders 1CP like Jägers would help by a lot. So USF players would need to build some core ifnantry units like all the others....
6 Nov 2021, 16:49 PM
#97
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 965 | Subs: 1


Pathfinders are good early game cuz it makes sense for them as scout units to make beacons for paradrops.


What doesnt make sence why early game scouting unit is allowing you to skip your mainline, why scouting unit has capabilities of 1v1ing anything but STs\Kubels at range early on and why on top of that it vets up like crazy.

And as long as you stay in cover and at range, they wont drop models like crazy, not at all.
6 Nov 2021, 18:58 PM
#98
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1738

does the riflemen bulletin buffs work on pathfinders btw?
6 Nov 2021, 19:37 PM
#99
avatar of general_gawain

Posts: 905

does the riflemen bulletin buffs work on pathfinders btw?
Pathfinders have a own bulletin and a second one if you bought Ardennes Assault and finished campaign with Able company. They can’t use the Riflemen bulletins.

Personally I do like any variation of the boring 3x Rifle standard opening. So a Pathfinder opening is welcomed. I would vote for 0 CP Cavalry Rifles with upgrades locked by tech too. More variation means more strategy and tactics and that is a good thing. There have to be ways to counter Pathfinder of course but I can see this counters, so I don’t see a general problem with Pathfinder openings. Of course you have to adapt. A defensive MG/mortar build won’t work very well. Grens with LMG upgrade (once MU is available) will work way better. If there is a lot cover where Pathfinders will stay and fire a supporting mortar could work out. Force into trading whenever possible since Pathfinder are expensive at reinforcing. Playing OKW Kubels are a great answer to Pathfinder openings, Pathfinders are way worse vs Kubel than Rifles are.
That are only nondoctrinal answers to a doctrinal thread. Try sprinting Assgrens for example, you’ll really drive Pathfinders back with them. Different openings require different answers. It would be boring if you could react always the same way with your standard build to different openings of your opponent.

Edit: It is sad already, that WC51 openings got nerfed a little bit too harsh to be of any relevance now. Nerfing Pathfinders would lead to another opening disappearing.
7 Nov 2021, 10:22 AM
#100
avatar of VonManteuffel

Posts: 85

Pathfinders have a own bulletin and a second one if you bought Ardennes Assault and finished campaign with Able company. They can’t use the Riflemen bulletins.

Personally I do like any variation of the boring 3x Rifle standard opening. So a Pathfinder opening is welcomed. I would vote for 0 CP Cavalry Rifles with upgrades locked by tech too. More variation means more strategy and tactics and that is a good thing. There have to be ways to counter Pathfinder of course but I can see this counters, so I don’t see a general problem with Pathfinder openings. Of course you have to adapt. A defensive MG/mortar build won’t work very well. Grens with LMG upgrade (once MU is available) will work way better. If there is a lot cover where Pathfinders will stay and fire a supporting mortar could work out. Force into trading whenever possible since Pathfinder are expensive at reinforcing. Playing OKW Kubels are a great answer to Pathfinder openings, Pathfinders are way worse vs Kubel than Rifles are.
That are only nondoctrinal answers to a doctrinal thread. Try sprinting Assgrens for example, you’ll really drive Pathfinders back with them. Different openings require different answers. It would be boring if you could react always the same way with your standard build to different openings of your opponent.

Edit: It is sad already, that WC51 openings got nerfed a little bit too harsh to be of any relevance now. Nerfing Pathfinders would lead to another opening disappearing.


You call 30MP reinforcement cost for a 4 men squad expensive? Cool! Then OKW Jägers are SUPER-expensive with 35MP cost...

And your whole argumentation targets at a skillful playstyle. Sorry, but we talk about players with very much skill and even they struggle hard and have almost no chance. So don't argue with skill and l2p issues. Thats none of the reason.

At this point I should clarify the core of the issue. It's not solely about Pathfinders themselves. It's about the very abusive combo with M8 Scotts, Packhowitzers, MGs and AT guns. As Axis you MUST play with weapon teams. But this combo is a hardcounter to weapon teams. So in order to not nerfing all USF weapon teams (which is nonsense) the only chance to fix this, is nerfing Pathfinders.
PAGES (8)down
1 user is browsing this thread: 1 guest

Ladders Top 10

  • #
    Steam Alias
    W
    L
    %
    Streak
Data provided by Relic Relic Entertainment

Replay highlight

VS
  • Oberkommando West flag Oziligath
  • The British Forces flag T.R. Sidewinder
uploaded by Oziligath

Board Info

252 users are online: 252 guests
40 posts in the last 24h
200 posts in the last week
807 posts in the last month
Registered members: 34918
Welcome our newest member, Leitzels
Most online: 1221 users on 25 Feb 2020, 12:03 PM