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E8 is still trash

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20 Jun 2021, 23:11 PM
#61
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1080



But 85 still suffers from the same problems EZ8 suffers from anyway. Point is, IF EZ8 came with an overall better commander, it would have been fine addition to the army. But EZ8 is a "selling point" of the Rifle company, because other abilities are garbage. But EZ8 was never supposed to be a selling point of it, its just all the nerfs of the commander made it look like it is.

Its just the fact that EZ8 comes with USF version of ostheer "joint opperations" commander. Very specific, inflexible and fitted only for a specific type of play.


So you have 2 options. Buff the commander or buff E8 or hybrid. This patch had done neither or 3. It tried to be a hybrid. E8 and the commander were buffed, but ever so slightly.
E8 got an option of being a cretin version of the Jackson and the commander got some small gimmicky buffs that really don't change anything. Maybe (big maybe) in the 1v1 they do mean something. 2v2+, nope.

In my opinion,
E8 should have gotten a price increase along with 800 HP, 240(or 235) armour, speed/accel buffs and a slight penetration buff.

Compared to the Comet, it would be slightly cheaper and would probably not be a huge power spike in terms of timing. Timing could be adjusted by longer build time or something. Veterancy would probably need some looking at, especially the radio net. 240 armour/800 HP tanks en-masse would most likely be OP in teamgames with radio-net. Or maybe add some buffs, like the penetration one, or 45 range through veterancy.
That way the E8 would brawl a lot easier, would bounce a little bit better and would survive a snare + 4 tank hits.

USF would get a commander with a lategame tank that would still lose to Panthers, but would actually demolish OKW P4 and bounce more reliably AT shells.

I would also swap the current halftrack with the mortar halftrack.

Commander gets:
Good anti-blob platform through the possibility of dual mortar HTs (dual paks shoot too slow and shells take too long to land with mediocre AOE profile to actually hurt blobs, only good for static sh**).
A true premium tank that can actually demolish medium tanks, arrives after the mediums, costs more and loses to Panthers which would arrive somewhat later than the E8 to overshadow it, BUT, the E8 would be much more active through it's speed/accel and the possibility of a late-game Hail Mary.

That's a commander I would definitely pick in 3v3.
Mobile? Check
Late game? Check
Anti-blob? Check

Commander weakness? LeFH, heavy tanks. Would have to go for Jacksons for that. Population management. If you want 2 Halftracks to counter blobs + infantry you gonna need to sacrifice one E8 for the population.

Just my two cents.
21 Jun 2021, 02:36 AM
#62
avatar of theekvn

Posts: 160

After played around 10+ Rifle company across all game mode, here is my views:
+ M3 car follow up with rifle/ RE flamer is acceptable, not old 5 man gren stacks OP. This speed up USF alot in 1v1, 2v2.Sometime I worked on 3v3 4v4 too.
+ Another change was too small, RE flamer still drop like flies.
+ EZ8:
- If you go with .50 call then it is a fast deathweight, un reliable on armor fight. > fail change.
- With commander upgrade. Turn out you became Overprice M10 which provided AI job by sniping Inf MODEL. Serriously, is this warthunder RB ?. focus gunery at vet 1 made ez8 become KV-1 with better gun, less tanky and yet breaking USF nature. Seriously, I rather let ez8 become second line tank, let M36 follow rifles.
21 Jun 2021, 03:56 AM
#63
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1704

i thought the plays for E8, is to rush for 3 of them and overwhelm the opponents.

at least for 2v2 i can tell
21 Jun 2021, 10:52 AM
#64
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3238 | Subs: 1



Not to mention that the Comet is rightfully locked behind an extra tech tier, bringing the total costs up significantly compared to a normal medium and providing a safe timing gat. Something that is not possible for the E8. That's the main reason it did not get a (mini) Comet profile. It would've snowballed way too hard.


What a non argument, you could have made it available once all tech are unlocked if the tech gate was so critical.
Does the commander panther require a special tech to be called?
Do Pershing or Tiger require special tech to be called? A command Ez8 with a AT profile close to the panther (or in between the comet and panther) is what we really suggested.
21 Jun 2021, 16:37 PM
#65
avatar of Kurobane

Posts: 457



So you have 2 options. Buff the commander or buff E8 or hybrid. This patch had done neither or 3. It tried to be a hybrid. E8 and the commander were buffed, but ever so slightly.
E8 got an option of being a cretin version of the Jackson and the commander got some small gimmicky buffs that really don't change anything. Maybe (big maybe) in the 1v1 they do mean something. 2v2+, nope.

In my opinion,
E8 should have gotten a price increase along with 800 HP, 240(or 235) armour, speed/accel buffs and a slight penetration buff.

Compared to the Comet, it would be slightly cheaper and would probably not be a huge power spike in terms of timing. Timing could be adjusted by longer build time or something. Veterancy would probably need some looking at, especially the radio net. 240 armour/800 HP tanks en-masse would most likely be OP in teamgames with radio-net. Or maybe add some buffs, like the penetration one, or 45 range through veterancy.
That way the E8 would brawl a lot easier, would bounce a little bit better and would survive a snare + 4 tank hits.

USF would get a commander with a lategame tank that would still lose to Panthers, but would actually demolish OKW P4 and bounce more reliably AT shells.

I would also swap the current halftrack with the mortar halftrack.

Commander gets:
Good anti-blob platform through the possibility of dual mortar HTs (dual paks shoot too slow and shells take too long to land with mediocre AOE profile to actually hurt blobs, only good for static sh**).
A true premium tank that can actually demolish medium tanks, arrives after the mediums, costs more and loses to Panthers which would arrive somewhat later than the E8 to overshadow it, BUT, the E8 would be much more active through it's speed/accel and the possibility of a late-game Hail Mary.

That's a commander I would definitely pick in 3v3.
Mobile? Check
Late game? Check
Anti-blob? Check

Commander weakness? LeFH, heavy tanks. Would have to go for Jacksons for that. Population management. If you want 2 Halftracks to counter blobs + infantry you gonna need to sacrifice one E8 for the population.

Just my two cents.



Agreed. Maybe they should put you on the balance team.

All jokes aside though the biggest weakness with the Easy 8 is that the rest of Rifle Company is pure shit. Instead of fixing that they turn the Easy 8 into a garbage Jackson Hybrid that excels at nothing except for how bad it is.

Even if the Easy 8 Shot B4 Rounds from halfway across the map with instant suppression that deleted everything or was made into pre-nerf Tiger Ace I still would not pick it because the rest of the commander is hot garbage.

At the very least though it should have been Comet/Panther level which are STOCK non doctrinal units that a Commander with the sole purpose of is the Easy 8 happens to be significantly worse than those units. Wether it needed all techs unlocked, 12 CP or whatever it should have been made that way instead of the current implementation.

If you are going to change something then it needs to be done correctly. They could have left it alone and it would have made no difference because USF doesn't have a complete toolkit at its disposal.

Now if they had buffed the M8 Scott by removing the Auto Fire and converting it into a Mini Priest equal to Katyusha/Panzerwerfer instead of nerfing it into the ground then that would have freed up USF from having to always pick Priest/Calliope commanders and Rifle Company would be a solid luxury choice but you are asking me to give up Calliope/Priest with no alternatives in place? Why would I pick this garbage commander over something else especially since the easy 8 is worse than stock options from other factions.

21 Jun 2021, 16:45 PM
#66
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1080



...


Scott is fine as it is. Sure the autofire has been gutted, but the new barrage is quite accurate to dislodge team weapons, so it has that going for it, which is nice.
They should have buffed the barrage on pak howi and nerf the autofire accuracy instead of just plain nerfing it (well, they did increase to 6 models, but that does jack shit for the survivability).

I just hope this is the last major update. The balance team screwed this game beyond repair, and for each good QoL change, there have been 3 plain stupid balance changes

EDIT: And I don't think E8 should be panther level. USF has a Jackson. That is enough. E8 should IMHO be a pure brawler that shits on medium tanks and loses to Panthers. Right now, the E8 just wins vs mediums (eg. Panther shits on mediums, each and every stock one, 90% of time walking away with 1 penetrated hit on it)
21 Jun 2021, 17:07 PM
#67
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5248




EDIT: And I don't think E8 should be panther level. USF has a Jackson. That is enough. E8 should IMHO be a pure brawler that shits on medium tanks and loses to Panthers. Right now, the E8 just wins vs mediums (eg. Panther shits on mediums, each and every stock one, 90% of time walking away with 1 penetrated hit on it)

but currently the E8 DOES shit on mediums and lose to panthers... thats what i was saying with the "it can almost take on 2 in the time it takes to be killed"

it has more armour that p4s are equipped to reliably deal with and enough pen to overcome the p4 armour advantage as well as an extra hit of health.
its not panther vs t34 levels, but it definitely doesn't fear p4s.
it can still self heal as well which makes what damage it DOES take in the brawl less meaningful since itll be up and running in no time and without impacting infantry pressure.

look at it like this: the panthers job is to shit on enemy medium tanks. the E8s job is to force the enemy get panthers.
just like the panther forces allies to get tds.
part of the game is an arms race, and thats part of the appeal frankly. forcing certain build orders, especially expensive specialist units is a strategic victory.

the unfortunate thing is the commander doesnt really have anything top leverage the window that creates...
21 Jun 2021, 17:26 PM
#68
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1080


but currently the E8 DOES shit on mediums and lose to panthers... thats what i was saying with the "it can almost take on 2 in the time it takes to be killed"

it has more armour that p4s are equipped to reliably deal with and enough pen to overcome the p4 armour advantage as well as an extra hit of health.
its not panther vs t34 levels, but it definitely doesn't fear p4s.
it can still self heal as well which makes what damage it DOES take in the brawl less meaningful since itll be up and running in no time and without impacting infantry pressure.

look at it like this: the panthers job is to shit on enemy medium tanks. the E8s job is to force the enemy get panthers.
just like the panther forces allies to get tds.
part of the game is an arms race, and thats part of the appeal frankly. forcing certain build orders, especially expensive specialist units is a strategic victory.

the unfortunate thing is the commander doesnt really have anything top leverage the window that creates...


It shits on OST P4. Not the OKW one. So in reality it shits on one mainline tank. OST P4. Each other tank can be used to counter it. Stugs, JP4, Panthers. Heck, even a well microed vetted puma can push it away. Test it out 5 times and see that E8 will not shit on OKW P4. If you want to test the 2v1 vs OKW P4, go ahead and tell me if the E8 won at least one fight.

I've done so (E8 vs P4J) 6 times, you can find it up there. 4 times E8 won barely. Once it won with about 60% hp, and once it won with only one penetrated hit (but that time, P4J missed 3 times). So in reality it barely shat on 2/6 times (maybe even none if the P4J didn't miss 3 times). And once a single Panther arrives, that's it. You can scrap the commander.
720 hp means that if it takes a snare, it becomes a regular 640 hp tank. It won't bleed infantry reliably. The commander is beyond shit.
The only thing you can do with E8s in teamgames is hope you survive until you get 4+ E8s on the field. Then you can do a hail Mary with them.

And don't give me that self healing bullshit. Sure it can repair itself once it's out of danger, but it's far from being some OP mechanic. OKW repair bots could be the same in that regard.

Both the commander and E8 are shit. E8 even more so because at least the rifleman can build sandbags with it. So it has some viability in 1v1s.

For once, scrap the "on paper" analysis and put it in regular 2v2+ fights. Where the tanks don't fight front armour to front armour, and where agility and abilities matter. Not the BS you're doing now.
MMX
21 Jun 2021, 17:47 PM
#69
avatar of MMX

Posts: 818 | Subs: 1


[...]


agree, the E8 can easily deal with any axis medium without breaking a sweat, the extra range it gets with focused gunnery in the most recent patch is just the icing on the cake.
what i'm more concerned about is that it still has mediocre AI at best. imho this should have been addressed instead of improving its AT - the very aspect it didn't have too many problems to begin with.

i'd also say putting the m3 halftrack into the freed-up commander slot feels a bit like a wasted opportunity to make rifle company a bit more viable without putting too much weight on the e8 alone. maybe that's just because i fail to see a way to make good use of it, but for me literally any other unit than the m3 would have been a better addition. the mortar ht, as proposed somewhere above, or even the m5 could have made the commander much more interesting imho.
21 Jun 2021, 18:59 PM
#70
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 2192

problem on them is the callin arty, which came way too fast to dodge.
21 Jun 2021, 23:57 PM
#71
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5248

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Jun 2021, 17:47 PMMMX


agree, the E8 can easily deal with any axis medium without breaking a sweat, the extra range it gets with focused gunnery in the most recent patch is just the icing on the cake.
what i'm more concerned about is that it still has mediocre AI at best. imho this should have been addressed instead of improving its AT - the very aspect it didn't have too many problems to begin with.

i'd also say putting the m3 halftrack into the freed-up commander slot feels a bit like a wasted opportunity to make rifle company a bit more viable without putting too much weight on the e8 alone. maybe that's just because i fail to see a way to make good use of it, but for me literally any other unit than the m3 would have been a better addition. the mortar ht, as proposed somewhere above, or even the m5 could have made the commander much more interesting imho.

I'd take away the WP off map and give the E8 WP. that fixes its AI issues without making critical mass OP like the old E8 that was an AI monster.
One could also try a fragmentation round (sorta like the is2 has but smaller obviously) or perhaps an ability to suppress a target area. So it's low AI is instead overcome by strong support ability that let's rifles shine

The idea should be that the E8 supplements the stock line up, not replaces it.
22 Jun 2021, 02:25 AM
#72
avatar of rumartinez89

Posts: 193


I'd take away the WP off map and give the E8 WP. that fixes its AI issues without making critical mass OP like the old E8 that was an AI monster.
One could also try a fragmentation round (sorta like the is2 has but smaller obviously) or perhaps an ability to suppress a target area. So it's low AI is instead overcome by strong support ability that let's rifles shine

The idea should be that the E8 supplements the stock line up, not replaces it.


You mean like the mg causing suppressive fire thru an ability? That sounds fairly useful and would help with blobs if captain build is chosen. Or maybe a toggle with explosive rounds that do little damage but high suppression.
22 Jun 2021, 03:01 AM
#73
avatar of theekvn

Posts: 160



You mean like the mg causing suppressive fire thru an ability? That sounds fairly useful and would help with blobs if captain build is chosen. Or maybe a toggle with explosive rounds that do little damage but high suppression.

yes, there are some Coh2 game mod made MGs on tank ping down (yellow ping) on inf. Or manual HE shell ability ( pay xx ammu for 1 shot HE). Worked very well indeed.
Especially one of USF armor feature is changing Shell type, Ez8 should have it too.
- WP/HE shell skill shot ability.
- Timmed HVAP for more pen trade off with ROF ( balance with ammnu cost, pen value). Radio net also a factor to count into.
- Timmed APCBC shell for more DMG, around 200-240 dmg per shot( balance with ammu cost, pen close - medium - long range value, I suggest it take every high pen at low range, subtable at medium and bad at long so Ez8 shouldn't become new M36 while stationdary, it had to closing in to take on supperior moving acc ). So Ez8s could commit a big fight against Axis heavy tank.
New commander upgrade should unlock those type of shell instead of weird vet 1 ability turned your Ez8 into slow, overprice less tanky KV1 with upgraded M10 gun (not to mention this gun killing inf by sniping model =)) ).
- For .50 cal upgrade:
- Timmed or passive ping down inf ( give them yellow Ping is enough). Buff radio net so 2-3 ez8 must be better than 2-3 M4 76mm. for now 140 fuels unit is worse than 125 fuels unit on every espects.
> dont need to touch the tanky espect of Ez8 to fullil the line " Ez8 mustn't a tanker unit, USF lives on their mobility huhuhu ".
MMX
22 Jun 2021, 03:35 AM
#75
avatar of MMX

Posts: 818 | Subs: 1


I'd take away the WP off map and give the E8 WP. that fixes its AI issues without making critical mass OP like the old E8 that was an AI monster.
One could also try a fragmentation round (sorta like the is2 has but smaller obviously) or perhaps an ability to suppress a target area. So it's low AI is instead overcome by strong support ability that let's rifles shine

The idea should be that the E8 supplements the stock line up, not replaces it.


Yeah, an AI skill shot would also be my preferred solution, though I understand the concerns that too much AI on the Easy 8 might lead to a lot of problems down the road. However, a WP or fragmentation shell could easily be balanced to provide strong anti infantry firepower, especially against blobs, without being too oppressive by tweaking secondary stats like mun cost, cooldown and aim time accordingly.

I also like the idea of adding some suppression to the Hull MG (akin to Spearhead) when Focused Gunnery is active. This could be an interesting solution to give the E8 a bit more of a supportive role against infantry at least in case a direct DPS buff is not in the cards.


22 Jun 2021, 06:19 AM
#76
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5248

The trick, as I said, is making the E8 more interesting and more useful without making the m4 redundant entirely. If you want raw AI you can do no better than the m4. But if the E8 is your "infantry support tank" with abilities and the capacity to keep enemy p4s off your back then it has a role that might suit certain playstyles.

Ability, not stats imo is the way to go.
22 Jun 2021, 08:20 AM
#77
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1080

The trick, as I said, is making the E8 more interesting and more useful without making the m4 redundant entirely. If you want raw AI you can do no better than the m4. But if the E8 is your "infantry support tank" with abilities and the capacity to keep enemy p4s off your back then it has a role that might suit certain playstyles.

Ability, not stats imo is the way to go.


Yeah, let's make a faction that is muni starved due to all the abilities it needs to perform well, even more muni starved. You have some twisted view of USF, do you even play them?
22 Jun 2021, 08:26 AM
#78
avatar of theekvn

Posts: 160



Yeah, let's make a faction that is muni starved due to all the abilities it needs to perform well, even more muni starved. You have some twisted view of USF, do you even play them?

but it would be an acceptable choice for both sides.... ability that cost 35-45 ammu is okay-ish.
22 Jun 2021, 10:01 AM
#79
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1080

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Jun 2021, 08:26 AMtheekvn

but it would be an acceptable choice for both sides.... ability that cost 35-45 ammu is okay-ish.


It's not about the cost itself, it's about fixing sh** with band-aids. E8 does not need to wipe infantry, nor does it need to go toe to toe with Panthers. It just needs to sh** on P4J. Now, with focused gunnery it can, but it's also a BS solution as it makes E8 not a brawling type, but some sort of retarded Jackson, extending range and penetration for the cost of agility. Something you do not want on an E8.
You have plenty of AT in terms of AT gun, zooks and Jackson (+ doctrinal M10, Pershing, ranger zooks)
You have plenty of AI in HE shells, pak, rifles and scotts
You lack blob control for teamgames (not going to be fixed by E8)
You lack a lategame brawler.

As I've said:
HP to 800 for snare + 4 hits (740 dmg)
Armour to 235/240 for at least a higher chance for that one more bounce vs AT walls
Rework veterancy, especially radio net, as 800 hp with 240 armour could be OP en-masse.
Panthers are OP en-masse, but not because of some veterancy, but because of their existence in teamgames, and if the enemy can amass 4+ Panthers, then you're clearly doing something wrong. OP, but not OP because of the unit itself, but because of mode/map, so in the end, fine.
4+ E8s with radio net would be OP.
With veterancy rework you can really get creative (range,pen,MGs,accuracy,agility...) as to how the E8 scales throughout the game.
Nerf price and/or build time.
I'd keep the MG/commander upgrade and current abilities (remove focused gunnery).
And I'd keep the current accel/speed buffs it got.

And I'd also swap the current clown car for mortar HT in Rifle commander.
I'd wager my eczema-disease prone right middle finger that Rifle commander would be much more picked in all game modes. And if it really would be OP, then you can nerf it.

EDIT: And of course, USF would get a lategame commander. Not only do you have mortar HT/E8s to smoke off the heavy TDs and help with flanking, but axis would also have to be careful of their own medicine... Same as how you do not want Panthers+Tigers late game critical mass, you wouldn't want E8 critical mass. Sure they have less survivability than Panthers + Tiger, but they do have the target size/moving acc advantage + smoke canisters.
22 Jun 2021, 10:04 AM
#80
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5248



Yeah, let's make a faction that is muni starved due to all the abilities it needs to perform well, even more muni starved. You have some twisted view of USF, do you even play them?

Costs are counter play. Muni abilities also add some interesting choices. Spend all your muni on BARS because you like easy mode is still always an option, but some of use want to actually enjoy the game and interact with it.

The E8 performs well for its role and cost. Adding another layer requires additional balancing, thus the additional costs. You would still be welcome to ignore the abilities, nobody is pointing a gun to your head.

A variety of abilities makes the game more dynamic in addition to elevating to skill ceiling instead of do it all units simply raising the floor.
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