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russian armor

E8 is still trash

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22 Jun 2021, 10:31 AM
#81
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1112


Costs are counter play. Muni abilities also add some interesting choices. Spend all your muni on BARS because you like easy mode is still always an option, but some of use want to actually enjoy the game and interact with it.

The E8 performs well for its role and cost. Adding another layer requires additional balancing, thus the additional costs. You would still be welcome to ignore the abilities, nobody is pointing a gun to your head.

A variety of abilities makes the game more dynamic in addition to elevating to skill ceiling instead of do it all units simply raising the floor.


False. You have some weird notion that COH2 is some sort of pro-scene RTS. If anything, doctrines should add some flavour and/or different tactics. Spending all muni on bars is easy mode when? So you spend all muni on bars, and then get shut down by any sort of vehicle/indirect. I really don't know what faction you play the most, nor at which rank you play, but spending all your <insert resource here> on <insert object here> usually leads to losses and is a 1000+ rank play.
Same as how you'll see people only spamming falls into tanks, or Sections, or upgrading rifles to the max and then lacking muni for a simple smoke nade or snare.
Or the classic MG42 spam I ran into last game with gren LMG spam.
Or the brilliant Penal/Guards spam that ragequits after one stuka bleeds 300+ MP in one volley.
Yeah, don't BS me with such petty nonsensical arguments.

"some of us want to actually enjoy the game and interact..." my God the cringe.

"A variety of abilities..." Yeah. No. You're not raising skill ceilings, nor are you raising floors. All you're doing is adding abilities. That's it. Don't mistake this game for some God-given pro RTS that is super dynamic and immersive. It's not. It's an arcade RTS. Always has been, always will be. Adding abilities just adds abilities, nothing more, nothing less.
Adding abilities to E8 that wipe infantry would do nothing, unless we're talking about mega blob control. E8 already has enough AI through pintle MG and snipe shots to bleed infantry (kinda like a Panther, but better). It does not need some ability for 30 or 40 munis that would kill one more model. It's not going to be used unless you make it an IS-2 frag shot level.

The one thing I agree with is that adding abilities makes the game dynamic. That is true. However, there is something called time. Imagine if you had a unit with 10 abilities. Now by your standards, that unit would be the pinnacle of dynamic play. I'd wager my left ball that 9/10 of those abilities would go unused throughout 90% of engagements. You either don't have time or space or both, to execute every ability, one after the other.
So again, you're not wrong, you're just misguided
MMX
22 Jun 2021, 10:49 AM
#82
avatar of MMX

Posts: 840 | Subs: 1


[...]
Rework veterancy, especially radio net, as 800 hp with 240 armour could be OP en-masse.
[...]


thought that's already been addressed in the latest patch, hasn't it?

as to the rest, buffing armor and giving it 800 hp isn't a bad idea per se, but i doubt that would even be needed against the p4j if performance against mediums is the only concern. the tank's AI on the other is severely lacking, no matter how you spin it, so i fail to see why adding a mun based ability to help out in that regard would be pointless.
22 Jun 2021, 16:13 PM
#83
avatar of EtherealDragon

Posts: 1790 | Subs: 1



Now for the Jackson the extra health and armor no longer factor due to the Jackson range keeping it out of harms way. The Jackson obviously pens better and its ability which also increases penetration and damage does not have a corresponding loss to mobility.

Now if we look at it as a 2 tank per side battle it gets even worse. Using both a non-doctrinal Sherman and Jackson vs 2 E8. The Sherman covers all of the Jacksons deficiencies and vice versa while being cheaper than the 2 E8.


It's a question of what you want in your army composition and there will always be tradeoffs. If you want to have 2 units where one is solely AT and the other can be flexible AT/AI then that's fine. But 2 E8s, while more expensive also have the benefit of being generalists and more durable than the M4A3.

You don't ever have to worry about the Jackson getting caught by AT Infantry or the M4A3 getting outmuscled by other tanks (or being forced to use them together all the time). Easy 8 will almost always be the outmuscler and that's not nothing. It's not going to be great AI and it's not going to have Jacksons's Penetration ceiling but those are choices you willingly make and factor into your army composition. Those tradeoffs by themselves don't mean the E8 is trash. More simply put, don't build the E8 and expect it to perform like a Comet because it wont.
22 Jun 2021, 18:24 PM
#84
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5263



22 Jun 2021, 18:27 PM
#85
avatar of rumartinez89

Posts: 224



It's a question of what you want in your army composition and there will always be tradeoffs. If you want to have 2 units where one is solely AT and the other can be flexible AT/AI then that's fine. But 2 E8s, while more expensive also have the benefit of being generalists and more durable than the M4A3.

You don't ever have to worry about the Jackson getting caught by AT Infantry or the M4A3 getting outmuscled by other tanks (or being forced to use them together all the time). Easy 8 will almost always be the outmuscler and that's not nothing. It's not going to be great AI and it's not going to have Jacksons's Penetration ceiling but those are choices you willingly make and factor into your army composition. Those tradeoffs by themselves don't mean the E8 is trash. More simply put, don't build the E8 and expect it to perform like a Comet because it wont.


I see what your saying but they are generalist in the sense that if rng rolls your way you will do some AI damage. It will not punish blobbing like the regular Sherman HE will and to get the improved AT performance you have to invest heavily with more fuel, muni and loss of mobility.

So I end up punishing myself instead of my opponent until the E8 hits Vet2 where it finally starts to work as intended.
The outmuscling is only in a vacuum 1v1 vs OST tier 3. Looking at cost, the OST player could just make a Stug with the 2nd one not far away vs 1 E8. Yes, the E8 will win 1v1 but against 2 its losing no questions asked which is to be expected. Making the Stugs is a minor inconvenience for most players and does not require any specific doctrine to make. For OKW, only the P4J is getting outmuscled from the STOCK choices available.

Now looking at Army composition an OST player can be expected to have an AT gun which will reliably push back the E8, OKW can spam raks however the E8 has a decent chance of deflecting. This allows the Axis player to stick to their strategy which means my choice only disadvantaged me. I did not force them to hold out for a Panther which would give me at least a minute or so to create momentum.

The reason most have such high expectations of the tank is due to the relative weakness of the entire company. So like some have said the tank needs to carry the doctrine or the rest of Rifle company needs to be reworked.

22 Jun 2021, 18:34 PM
#86
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3233 | Subs: 1


Yeah, don't BS me with such petty nonsensical arguments.

You should really read your own posts sometime

I agree that the new vet 1 ability is not great, but that's just cause how THAT ability works. Making your medium tank slower when it has 215 armor and 720hp is a bad idea imo

Vet 1 abilities are a huge part of the game, I see no problem with giving the EZ8 a better one. That's what they were trying to do, but this new one doesn't seem that good
22 Jun 2021, 18:44 PM
#87
avatar of rumartinez89

Posts: 224

For my crazy idea of the day, why not remove halftrack and give it an AI loiter. IT would be unique to Rifle and allow the commander to be useful in larger game modes.
23 Jun 2021, 01:20 AM
#88
avatar of theekvn

Posts: 162

For my crazy idea of the day, why not remove halftrack and give it an AI loiter. IT would be unique to Rifle and allow the commander to be useful in larger game modes.

+1.
USF didn't have any thing like " stun shot ", "T-34 ram" :D
oh wait, M20 mines. Axis will cry soon
23 Jun 2021, 01:45 AM
#89
avatar of theekvn

Posts: 162


here is an example of bad of new Rifle company is:
- a Doctrine itself wouldn't give USF player any real advantage or alternative helping hand. Ez8 do little more AI power, better AT but it still Ez8. It cant really out flank Pz4 and cant open an offensive unlike normal M4 ( throw smoke sceen, forcus HE shell into MG, gren so Rifleman can follow to cut down Pak.... Ez8 simply could do it in times dual to new werid AI form).
- WP arty is WP arty. not Buffterfly bombing run.
- spint and Flare is good, but they are no back up after that, Mortar ? meh, Howie: nah trash, .50 cal, AT gun: being blasted by Ost mortar. tactical movement even better because it is global ability.... there are so manything to do from USF side meanwhile Axis side just buy a second MG, more gren,pzgren to counter the push.

> I know that USF player NOT THE BEST ONE but this is one of the fine example of how disadvantage of Rifleman company provided to USF. Not everyone is Tightrope, Findeed mirco level.

If Rifleman Company couldn't provide any high ground, Ez8 should be it. Give it 150-160 fuel tag and buff it raw power, add on ability or heck, better radio net buff. That force Axis go for heavy solution rather than keep buying AT gun, more pz4 because they know even 3 ez8 with vet still completely lost because reason.
23 Jun 2021, 14:55 PM
#90
avatar of rumartinez89

Posts: 224



Had this match today, I felt we were close skill wise. Once I started to spam mg to slow him down he seemed to switch to stall for arty and panther which pulled him back in the game along with loiter. It really makes Rifle feel the weakest USF commander and almost unusable in large game modes unless your into pain.

The E8 with mg and focus gunnery seemed to work a lot better for me than tank commander has in the past. I got some rng luck with bounces and AI hits and some misses with hitting dirt. Overall the tank did ok to good but while I was playing I didn't feel comfortable forcing an engagement until I went E8 blob.

Thanks for watching and please be nice, I know I am a mediocre player with occasional acts of brilliance.
23 Jun 2021, 15:42 PM
#91
avatar of thekessvn

Posts: 50



Had this match today, I felt we were close skill wise. Once I started to spam mg to slow him down he seemed to switch to stall for arty and panther which pulled him back in the game along with loiter. It really makes Rifle feel the weakest USF commander and almost unusable in large game modes unless your into pain.

The E8 with mg and focus gunnery seemed to work a lot better for me than tank commander has in the past. I got some rng luck with bounces and AI hits and some misses with hitting dirt. Overall the tank did ok to good but while I was playing I didn't feel comfortable forcing an engagement until I went E8 blob.

Thanks for watching and please be nice, I know I am a mediocre player with occasional acts of brilliance.

well, you better use commander upgrade on ez8 rather than .50 cal.
23 Jun 2021, 19:32 PM
#92
avatar of Rocket

Posts: 646

Ez8 use to be great maybe someone should check if they can find what it stats looked like about a year after WF armys came out seemed to be in a good spot then.

I think for one not nearly as many axis call in infantry had snares then and volks didnt have snares they did have shreks tho but ez8 still preformed well then.

I think its speed got nerfed to shit is what it feels like using it now from then. It also use to path much better like regular sherman now it is a pathing nightmare especially with 2 they just spin in circles.

Think maueverbility is only thing that would make this tank viable again, it should play a lot like the t34 85 but it just dosent.
23 Jun 2021, 20:12 PM
#93
avatar of comm_ash
Patrion 14

Posts: 1179 | Subs: 1

E8 was known for 1 thing historically: the suspension. COH2 is not a realistic game, but it does try to be authentic. Elephants and Jagdtiger are anti-tank beasts, with great range and pen. T34s are cheap and efficient. Churchills are tanky.

In keeping with authenticity, the E8 should have been buffed through maneuverability buffs, not trying to make it a weird analogue to the T34/85. If the e8 was a standard Sherman 76, with better maneuverability at a better price, it would become more authentic as a unit, and also give USF a unit that better specializes in terms of aggressive gameplay. The standard Sherman 76 would have the advantage of APCR, whereas the E8 would be a mobility beast.

---

I would increase the e8s turning speed and its acceleration. I would also look into buffing its speed, and/ or give it flanking speed at vet 1 replacing the focused gunnery ability.

I would either remove health down to 640 and buff price, or keep it at 720 to make it more of a panther analogue (Personally, I am not a fan of some Shermans having more health and some having less, so I think it should go to 640 health).

I would give it a WP shell ability to fit better into rifle company as an infantry support tank, and differentiate it from the more AT Sherman 76.

I would nerf range to 40 like most tanks, and slightly tweak the veterancy so the e8 has more maneuverability bonuses, while the Sherman 76 gets more RoF with vet. I would also buff the base RoF of the e8 closer to that of the Sherman 76 since it is losing range.

---

You could also channel the movie "Fury" and make it a locked to 1 Sherman "Ace" with many of the above changes and make it more price efficient. The crew could even come in with the elite crew upgrade, but with 1x stg44 instead of Thompsons as a reference to the movie.
23 Jun 2021, 20:51 PM
#94
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 515

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Jun 2021, 01:45 AMtheekvn

here is an example of bad of new Rifle company is:
.

Zodiak just played better. He had El Dorado on the ropes the whole game.
24 Jun 2021, 09:36 AM
#95
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3254 | Subs: 1

...


You want to make the Ez8 special and related to its historical strength, just put the engine critical trigger to >50% so you have a tank that can brawl without fearing getting faust and lost in a matter of seconds.
At the same time you make it unique for the game.
24 Jun 2021, 16:18 PM
#96
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5263

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Jun 2021, 09:36 AMEsxile


You want to make the Ez8 special and related to its historical strength, just put the engine critical trigger to >50% so you have a tank that can brawl without fearing getting faust and lost in a matter of seconds.
At the same time you make it unique for the game.


That's a neat suggestion
24 Jun 2021, 16:42 PM
#97
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3466 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Jun 2021, 01:45 AMtheekvn

here is an example of bad of new Rifle company is:


He doesn't even use the doctrine until 23mins in.
26 Jun 2021, 02:31 AM
#98
avatar of Grumpy

Posts: 1865

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Jun 2021, 19:32 PMRocket
Ez8 use to be great maybe someone should check if they can find what it stats looked like about a year after WF armys came out seemed to be in a good spot then.



It was gutted in this patch:

M4A3 Sherman
The Sherman's HE shells have been adjusted to be more reliable at dealing damage, but also less capable at wiping out squads.

Projectile now bypasses terrain/landscape.
HE shell AOE distance from 0.75/1.5/2.25 to 0.5/1.25/2.25
HE far AOE damage from 0.05 to 0.01

The first sentence was utter rubbish. They decreased the AOE to 20% of what it was, which didn't make it more reliable. It never had a significant problem with colliding with terrain.
26 Jun 2021, 03:27 AM
#99
avatar of Kurobane

Posts: 471

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Jun 2021, 09:36 AMEsxile


You want to make the Ez8 special and related to its historical strength, just put the engine critical trigger to >50% so you have a tank that can brawl without fearing getting faust and lost in a matter of seconds.
At the same time you make it unique for the game.



Don't think that would be possible since the engine critical is not based on the vehicle itself but the ability used (Panzerfaust for example).
26 Jun 2021, 05:01 AM
#100
avatar of Descolata

Posts: 479

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Jun 2021, 02:31 AMGrumpy


It was gutted in this patch:

M4A3 Sherman
The Sherman's HE shells have been adjusted to be more reliable at dealing damage, but also less capable at wiping out squads.

Projectile now bypasses terrain/landscape.
HE shell AOE distance from 0.75/1.5/2.25 to 0.5/1.25/2.25
HE far AOE damage from 0.05 to 0.01

The first sentence was utter rubbish. They decreased the AOE to 20% of what it was, which didn't make it more reliable. It never had a significant problem with colliding with terrain.


which patch? shouldnt be this one...

That would explain why the T-34 and P4 have the best 80 damage radius of any medium tank. Not yet nerfed.
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