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E8 is still trash

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20 Jun 2021, 13:19 PM
#41
avatar of Kurobane

Posts: 471

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Jun 2021, 19:10 PMEsxile
Relic will never allow the Calliope to be stock, but the balance team is responsible for the Scott and Pakh nerf to the ground making the Calliope becoming even more mandatory.

Anyway we all had the same conclusion, making the EZ8 a panther/comet alike (stat wise and price wise), even as limited to 1 but they never wanted to even give a try to the idea which says a lot about how they care about feedback and USF in general.


Easy 8 being a Panther/Comet clone would make sense however the balance team lacks sense and just does their own thing without listening to any feedback and coming out with random changes/nerfs out of left field for things that dont need to be changed.
20 Jun 2021, 13:31 PM
#42
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3254 | Subs: 1


The E8 demolishes a P4J too, because it has more hitpoints and more armor. It's an excellent vehicle against all medium tanks.


No it does not. Nobody comes here and say that the P4J demolishes the M4A3 while it naturally wins thanks to its amount of armor. So please refrain yourself from using superlative because the EZ8 wins vs it thanks to its amount of hitpoints.
20 Jun 2021, 15:01 PM
#43
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1112


The E8 demolishes a P4J too, because it has more hitpoints and more armor. It's an excellent vehicle against all medium tanks.


Demolishes? Really? I've tested it out a couple of times on flat land on steppes. Well, you can see where I tested it in the minimap.

E8 demolished P4J only once (the 2nd from the left in top right corner). Rest of the time it slugged it out.

6 times tested.
4 times the E8 barely won
Once it won with about 60% hp and ONCE it demolished the P4J with only one penetrated hit (although, in that test the P4J missed 3 times so there might have been some slight elevation that f***** up the accuracy check for P4J).

Of course, this is not a big sample, but the trend is here. If E8 demolishes P4J, then I'd expect at least 4 of them to be demolished.

Of course, this is semi-vacuum. A generally played 3v3+ map with lots of flat open land for tanks (not the worldbuilder one).
In reality, E8 would be slightly better because I'd expect the E8 to fire on the move if engaging the P4J. So in reality, E8 would win with a larger margin (goes both ways ofc, a good player might stop the P4J and constantly rotate it to frontally face the E8), but not much larger.

Point is... No, it does not demolish the P4J. It wins but given the existence of raketen and mines in OKW, and weak AT gun/long animation snares/no mines on USF, I'd wager that the overall fight: E8 vs P4J is even-steven.

EDIT: I used smoke so that I can rotate it post-enemy switch while the smoke clears to negate the turret rotation as much as possible (not realistic but still)
20 Jun 2021, 15:57 PM
#44
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3122 | Subs: 7

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Jun 2021, 13:31 PMEsxile
No it does not. Nobody comes here and say that the P4J demolishes the M4A3 while it naturally wins thanks to its amount of armor. So please refrain yourself from using superlative because the EZ8 wins vs it thanks to its amount of hitpoints.


It has 215 armor, compared to the P4's pen of 125/115/110, of course that plays a big part in the match-up against the P4.

At max range;
Chance for P4J to pen E8: 110/215x100 = 52%
Chance for E8 to pen P4J: 155/234x100 = 66%

At close range:
Chance for P4J to pen E8: 125/215x100 = 58%
Chance for E8 to pen P4J: 200/234x100 = 86%


Theoretical TTK, disregarding accuracy (which is about even, with E8 being 1 target size larger but having better scatter and better moving accuracy),
Time it takes for P4J to kill E8 at max range:
5/(110/215)x5,75 = 56,2 seconds

Time it takes for E8 to kill skirted P4 at max range:
4/(155/234)x6,55 = 39,6 seconds


Time it takes for P4J to kill E8 at near range:
5/(125/215)x5,75 = 49,6 seconds)

Time it takes for E8 to kill P4J at near range:
4/(200/234)x6,55 = 30,5 seconds


So yes it does win, decisively, thanks to its hitpoints and its relatively high armor (compared to P4 penetration). Especially at close to mid range. An E8 easily wins at range and it demolishes a P4J in a close to mid range brawl.
20 Jun 2021, 16:21 PM
#45
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 2418 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Jun 2021, 16:25 PMGrumpy


I don't think the balance team is very biased in terms of axis/allies. They do however, seem to make a lot of balance decisions based on how something does in 1v1's (maybe 2v2's also?). If you doubt this, look at the win rates for 1v1's. They're really close to 50% for everything except UKF. IMO, the problem is that they don't play random in larger game modes and often don't listen to the feedback that their changes are going to screw up balance in the larger modes.

In this case, the E8 is maybe a little better than it was, but still won't replace a Jackson. Even worse, when you compare this commander and the E8 to your choices as Soviet, it is trash. The E8 costs about the same as a KV1 or T34/85, but the AI is much worse. If you had access to either of those in this doctrine, you'd never buy an E8.

It gets worse when you compare the commander. Rifle company has no rocket arty, no long range arty, and nothing to destroy on-map howitzers. This makes it inferior to any Soviet commander with a KV1 or T34/85, and vastly inferior to something like Shock Army or Counter Attack.

If they buffed the AI of the main gun to match the T34/85, the E8 would be okay. This would be an ok-ish 1v1 commander. They would need to replace the half track with time-on-target to make it viable in larger games. Advanced Infantry equipment is underwhelming also. It'd be a lot better if it made either RE's or rifle squads into bazooka experts.

It would be nice to have an option to playing infantry company every time in 4v4's when you see LEFH's in the other team's loadout. That monotony is a large part of why I stopped playing USF.


The EZ8 will always be a 1v1 unit only (maybe 2v2 on certain maps). The doctrine it comes in is just way too limited to be viable in 3v3 and 4v4 where you absolutely need either Calliope, Priest or at least some powerful off-map.
20 Jun 2021, 16:22 PM
#46
avatar of Fire and Terror

Posts: 303

I played the easy 8 recently and I actually think this unit is pretty fine.


Here are some tips on how to increase effectiveness of the unit.

Pretty much always buy the mg, the changes to the at performance are nice but no way as good as justifying using this tank as a tank hunter

And tip nr 2 this is the big one:

Pretty much always use focused gunnery, the strengtg of this tank is now that it can reliably snipe infantry at 50 range, something a normal sherman lacks.

When you start combining easy 8 with vet 1 with scotts to kill paks, your happy that you have a brawler that can snipe inf at 50 range while still protecting from dives.

So to conclude: the main selling point of the ez8 is the constant use of vet1 and smart switchting so you can always keep pressure on inf at range
20 Jun 2021, 16:31 PM
#47
avatar of Descolata

Posts: 479

you can always keep pressure on inf at range


My personal tests show the Tank Commander improves accuracy enough to be worth it vs low RA infantry, while the MG falls off. If you can get the E8 vetted, the cannon really improves vs inf.

0 vet, no cover Panther w/ mg > E8 w/ mg > E8 w/ commander, 3 vet E8 w/ commander >> Panther /w mg = E8 w/ mg. Gets more pronounced with cover.
20 Jun 2021, 16:56 PM
#48
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12249 | Subs: 1

Easy8 beats Panzer J 6/0 in but the questions is does "demolishes" or not...

20 Jun 2021, 16:59 PM
#49
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12249 | Subs: 1



My personal tests show the Tank Commander improves accuracy enough to be worth it vs low RA infantry, while the MG falls off. If you can get the E8 vetted, the cannon really improves vs inf.

0 vet, no cover Panther w/ mg > E8 w/ mg > E8 w/ commander, 3 vet E8 w/ commander >> Panther /w mg = E8 w/ mg. Gets more pronounced with cover.

A easy firing main gun from range 0 has 5% chance to hit an infatry with target size and 5.5% with upgrade.

Don't think it would made much difference.

There might be a difference if the MG also benefit from the upgrade...
20 Jun 2021, 17:35 PM
#50
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5263



Easy 8 being a Panther/Comet clone would make sense however the balance team lacks sense and just does their own thing without listening to any feedback and coming out with random changes/nerfs out of left field for things that dont need to be changed.

You not understanding the way factions work does not equate to the balance team lacking sense. The Panther and comet can't self heal. The comet and the Panther do not have jacksons behind the and double bar rifles in front of the.you cannot simply copy and paste units between factions and call it a day. There are offsets in place that allow for certain traits and ignoring these offsets fucks stuff up.

Look at brit lend lease, they had to add crew repairs to the vehicles because surprise surprise a unit designed for a specific faction with specific traits doesn't translate one to one with another faction.
20 Jun 2021, 18:30 PM
#51
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3122 | Subs: 7

You not understanding the way factions work does not equate to the balance team lacking sense. The Panther and comet can't self heal. The comet and the Panther do not have jacksons behind the and double bar rifles in front of the.you cannot simply copy and paste units between factions and call it a day. There are offsets in place that allow for certain traits and ignoring these offsets fucks stuff up


Not to mention that the Comet is rightfully locked behind an extra tech tier, bringing the total costs up significantly compared to a normal medium and providing a safe timing gate. Something that is not possible for the E8. That's the main reason it did not get a (mini) Comet profile. It would've snowballed way too hard.
20 Jun 2021, 18:33 PM
#52
avatar of JohnSmith

Posts: 1273

I guess the main problem with the E8 that it is a lacklustre unit stuck in a very lacklustre commander. People expect more from an endgame unit than it being able to beat braindead players with P4s.
20 Jun 2021, 19:06 PM
#53
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3254 | Subs: 1



It has 215 armor, compared to the P4's pen of 125/115/110, of course that plays a big part in the match-up against the P4.

At max range;
Chance for P4J to pen E8: 110/215x100 = 52%
Chance for E8 to pen P4J: 155/234x100 = 66%

At close range:
Chance for P4J to pen E8: 125/215x100 = 58%
Chance for E8 to pen P4J: 200/234x100 = 86%


Theoretical TTK, disregarding accuracy (which is about even, with E8 being 1 target size larger but having better scatter and better moving accuracy),
Time it takes for P4J to kill E8 at max range:
5/(110/215)x5,75 = 56,2 seconds

Time it takes for E8 to kill skirted P4 at max range:
4/(155/234)x6,55 = 39,6 seconds


Time it takes for P4J to kill E8 at near range:
5/(125/215)x5,75 = 49,6 seconds)

Time it takes for E8 to kill P4J at near range:
4/(200/234)x6,55 = 30,5 seconds


So yes it does win, decisively, thanks to its hitpoints and its relatively high armor (compared to P4 penetration). Especially at close to mid range. An E8 easily wins at range and it demolishes a P4J in a close to mid range brawl.


You're not proving your point, P4J is more than capable to defend itself, we're far from a Panther demolishing a Sherman with nothing more than a scratch on its armor.
20 Jun 2021, 20:51 PM
#54
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 515

This might be a noob question, but does commander provide accuracy bonus for MGs as well?
20 Jun 2021, 21:23 PM
#55
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5263

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Jun 2021, 19:06 PMEsxile


You're not proving your point, P4J is more than capable to defend itself, we're far from a Panther demolishing a Sherman with nothing more than a scratch on its armor.

AT max range the E8 can Neary kill 2 in the time it takes to be killed by one.
It doesn't have to be combat engineers vs obers level of one sided to count as demolishing. Demolishing imo is beating decisively. No, it's not Panther level of demolishing but it's certainly not a match up the p4 wants to take.

I agree it's underwhelming, as is the commander but the E8 does its job. As I've said, I'd love to see it as a command unit if possible to make it more interesting. Statistically it's an exceptional unit. In any other faction it would see lots of use, that I have no doubt, but when you need to kill anything from a kuble to a KT you can't go wrong with a Jackson which undercuts the E8 substantially.
20 Jun 2021, 22:06 PM
#56
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1112


AT max range the E8 can Neary kill 2 in the time it takes to be killed by one.
It doesn't have to be combat engineers vs obers level of one sided to count as demolishing. Demolishing imo is beating decisively. No, it's not Panther level of demolishing but it's certainly not a match up the p4 wants to take.

I agree it's underwhelming, as is the commander but the E8 does its job. As I've said, I'd love to see it as a command unit if possible to make it more interesting. Statistically it's an exceptional unit. In any other faction it would see lots of use, that I have no doubt, but when you need to kill anything from a kuble to a KT you can't go wrong with a Jackson which undercuts the E8 substantially.


Only on paper. E8 is good only on paper. It could have been much more instead of this retarded Jackson variant. Problem is, if you do not reach critical mass with E8s in teamgames before the enemy gets their Panthers out, E8s will become useless (well unless you lose all your units and only have E8s on the field). With a Jackson, as you have written, you can fight anything from a kubel to KT. With an E8, you can fight anything from kubel to P4J. Of course, E8 can probably completely wipe everything like Panthers do in teamgames if you get 4+ of them and just charge through a demined flanks. But that's a big if, especially with the USF which is quite squishy and lacks rocket arty for blobs (and clearing mines, used the calliope to great effect just "wasting" a barrage on something I deemed to be heavily mined like bridges on Hamburger). E8 can be used as a hail Mary.
And demolishing means winning by a large margin. It's not some new COH2 terminology or anything but a hyperbole. E8 does not demolish the P4J. It wins, always, but does not demolish (and considering there are raketen behind a P4J which will penetrate E8 much more than the USF AT gun will penetrate the P4J...)

And the "at max range E8 can nearly kill 2...." .... which fu***** scenario is that? Try to test 2 P4J at max range vs E8 and you'll see that it will never win, even if you somehow manage to place them so that they always shoot at the frontal armour. You do not need that statement
20 Jun 2021, 22:20 PM
#57
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 784 | Subs: 1




How about you just dont use it, if you dont like it, especially in teamgames. The only problem with EZ8 is that it comes with a meh commander.

T34\85 isnt a panther nor its the best medium tank. But its still good and can deliver a punch where T34\76 cant and its still not useless because soviets have SU-85.

If you cant capitalize on EZ8 advantages (just like some cant capitalize on P4J advantages) dont use it, its not the type of unit, nor the commander it is in. Its not fitting your style of play to begin with.

Ppl think of EZ8 as a Jesus unit, which is supposed to carry you games and be your main always pick tank.
20 Jun 2021, 22:27 PM
#58
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1112



How about you just dont use it, if you dont like it, especially in teamgames. The only problem with EZ8 is that it comes with a meh commander.

T34\85 isnt a panther nor its the best medium tank. But its still good and can deliver a punch where T34\76 cant and its still not useless because soviets have SU-85.

If you cant capitalize on EZ8 advantages (just like some cant capitalize on P4J advantages) dont use it, its not the type of unit, not commander it is in which fits your style of play to begin with.

Ppl think of EZ8 as a Jesus unit, which is supposed to carry you games and be your main always pick tank.


But I don't use it. I used it a couple of times before the patch. Used it 3 times after the patch. Still useless in 3v3. No matter how I use it.
T3485 is cheapter, has 800 HP (so it can tank 4*160 + a 100dmg snare, something the E8 cannot with 720 HP), has much much better AI through MGs, fires faster, rotates faster, accelerates faster, has smaller profile.
T34/85 is probably one of the best tanks there is.

And IMHO the biggest benefits of T34/85 are:

1) Soviets have stock rocket arty
2) In multiple commanders which are great (elites, mortar...)

EDIT: Forgot to add
3) Veterancy on T34/85
20 Jun 2021, 22:38 PM
#59
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 784 | Subs: 1



But I don't use it. I used it a couple of times before the patch. Used it 3 times after the patch. Still useless in 3v3. No matter how I use it.
T3485 is cheapter, has 800 HP (so it can tank 4*160 + a 100dmg snare, something the E8 cannot with 720 HP), has much much better AI through MGs, fires faster, rotates faster, accelerates faster, has smaller profile.
T34/85 is probably one of the best tanks there is.

And IMHO the biggest benefits of T34/85 are:

1) Soviets have stock rocket arty
2) In multiple commanders which are great (elites, mortar...)


But 85 still suffers from the same problems EZ8 suffers from anyway. Point is, IF EZ8 came with an overall better commander, it would have been fine addition to the army. But EZ8 is a "selling point" of the Rifle company, because other abilities are garbage. But EZ8 was never supposed to be a selling point of it, its just all the nerfs of the commander made it look like it is.

Its just the fact that EZ8 comes with USF version of ostheer "joint opperations" commander. Very specific, inflexible and fitted only for a specific type of play.
20 Jun 2021, 22:55 PM
#60
avatar of rumartinez89

Posts: 224



But 85 still suffers from the same problems EZ8 suffers from anyway. Point is, IF EZ8 came with an overall better commander, it would have been fine addition to the army. But EZ8 is a "selling point" of the Rifle company, because other abilities are garbage. But EZ8 was never supposed to be a selling point of it, its just all the nerfs of the commander made it look like it is.

Its just the fact that EZ8 comes with USF version of ostheer "joint opperations" commander. Very specific, inflexible and fitted only for a specific type of play.


I agree with what you saying but supposed to is past tense, at this point it is the only reason to choose Rifle Company. One of my biggest issues with Rifle Company is Rifle Defenses, Advanced Infantry and the Halftrack are contradictory. Rifle defense promotes turtle based play from an aggressive faction, where Advance Infantry gives a flamethrower to a squishy unit but no sprint to make use of it. Flares to Rifle for more sight however the tank commander also gives sight so one is redundant and sprint to the rifleman which is only useful in certain scenarios. The halftrack comes to late to be used as a clown car so you got to use it defensively as part of a turtle strategy.
These 3 abilities form a weird passive aggressive grouping that needs some omph which is expected to come from the E8.
So either the rest of the commander needs to get buffed or the E8.
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