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Brummbar performance

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22 Mar 2021, 13:35 PM
#21
avatar of JohnSmith

Posts: 1273

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Mar 2021, 13:28 PMVipper

This is a problem of the "rush to the last tier" mentality (and I have already pointed out several times) (which is also part of the problem with light/micro light vehicles) but I doubt the mod team want to change that.


No, it's not a matter of mentality, that mentality will exist in any game design. People want to get to the last stage of their construction as early as possible. It's just normal gameloop pattern. The problem is not what you describe, it is exactly what Esxile wrote, the Brumm is too easily accessible and comes ages before any proper hard counter.

It's the only unit in T4 that feels like a tiny premium doctrine style speciality unit that vaporises too much, too easily. I love it, i love playing and microing around with it, but it feels too much, too easily accessible, and even covers my need for Pwerfers. I feel it should not overpower soft (even hard) counters too much. I can roll up to AT Guns with it, wipe it, and roll back too easily. Infantry with AT? Gone! Perhaps some armour reduction or speed reduction is needed. Some drawback. It even soft counters AT. Or somehow make the manual mode less potent. The more I use it, the better I get with it. And I'm only discovering its strengths, we've seen how potent it can get in recent disputed videos.
22 Mar 2021, 13:54 PM
#22
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3112 | Subs: 2

The almost only grudge I have when playing on the Allied side is that this unit is damn hard to snare. Running up with infantry to snare it will make you eat two shots. Conscripts are the only squad of being able to run up to a Brummbar due to 7 men and oorah, and even this at a hefty MP price.
22 Mar 2021, 14:03 PM
#23
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3602 | Subs: 1



No, it's not a matter of mentality, that mentality will exist in any game design. People want to get to the last stage of their construction as early as possible. It's just normal gameloop pattern. The problem is not what you describe, it is exactly what Esxile wrote, the Brumm is too easily accessible and comes ages before any proper hard counter.

It's the only unit in T4 that feels like a tiny premium doctrine style speciality unit that vaporises too much, too easily. I love it, i love playing and microing around with it, but it feels too much, too easily accessible, and even covers my need for Pwerfers. I feel it should not overpower soft (even hard) counters too much. I can roll up to AT Guns with it, wipe it, and roll back too easily. Infantry with AT? Gone! Perhaps some armour reduction or speed reduction is needed. Some drawback. It even soft counters AT. Or somehow make the manual mode less potent. The more I use it, the better I get with it. And I'm only discovering its strengths, we've seen how potent it can get in recent disputed videos.


I think Vipper pointed out Balance team mentality enabling even more this way of playing, not player's mentality. Rushing late game unit should be indeed a viable strategy but no so easily rewarding.

Now that the damage is done on the tiering only the brumbar can be amended. I feel the brumbar is like the old light vehicles meta, giving too much powerspike for when it comes.
MMX
22 Mar 2021, 14:07 PM
#24
avatar of MMX

Posts: 999 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Mar 2021, 12:11 PMVipper

Yes I mean Brumbar's performance gab between auto attack and manual shots. Even thou the unit uses the same stat in auto and manual shots, there is a big gap in performance.

Projectile speed which is lower than most weapons has do with it especially vs moving targets.


i think this is kind of a groundhog day moment, but i still don't get why it should be a problem that a unit performs better with manual targeting? i mean the brummbär isn't even bad if left on auto attack exclusively, so the tiny bit of user input required to make it shoot where you want is rather the icing on the cake than a strict necessity (in most situations, i agree hitting moving targets at max range without leading your shots is rather difficult).
in any case, the brum is a unit that rewards getting micro'ed properly and i see nothing wrong with that. if you need an ai-tank that is able chase running infantry squads without much babysitting then maybe an ostwind is the unit for you.
22 Mar 2021, 14:08 PM
#25
avatar of Lady Xenarra

Posts: 953

Reminder that OST do not have T4 infantry mowing machines and Brummbar is supposed to help them deal with inf blobs/elite Allied infantry iirc.
22 Mar 2021, 14:25 PM
#26
avatar of Aradan

Posts: 1003

Reminder that OST do not have T4 infantry mowing machines and Brummbar is supposed to help them deal with inf blobs/elite Allied infantry iirc.


Soviets dont have T4 infantry also and the best stock tank is the weakest one (T34/76).
22 Mar 2021, 14:34 PM
#27
avatar of Leo251

Posts: 311

Brumm is fine.

Allies has super cost effective TD (SU85, M36 and FF).
Also allies can double equip ANY infantry with double handed AT to help, (even the cheapest inf), which is a big advantage over Axis. Just use them well.
22 Mar 2021, 14:57 PM
#28
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13477 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Mar 2021, 14:07 PMMMX


i think this is kind of a groundhog day moment, but i still don't get why it should be a problem that a unit performs better with manual targeting? i mean the brummbär isn't even bad if left on auto attack exclusively, so the tiny bit of user input required to make it shoot where you want is rather the icing on the cake than a strict necessity (in most situations, i agree hitting moving targets at max range without leading your shots is rather difficult).
in any case, the brum is a unit that rewards getting micro'ed properly and i see nothing wrong with that. if you need an ai-tank that is able chase running infantry squads without much babysitting then maybe an ostwind is the unit for you.

The gap is simply to big.

Sent a conscript full frontally to throw a AT grenade in Brumbar in auto fire without out even using ourah and see what happen.

Actually there is little reason for the unit to have a projectile moving at 1/3 of the speeds of other projectiles (if I remember correctly), to me it is simply the same inconsistency with having Stuka rocket with zero penetration and high AOE penetration.
22 Mar 2021, 17:36 PM
#29
avatar of pvtgooner

Posts: 359

Brummy just needs an HP/Armor nerf to take one less shot before dying imo. Power level offensively is fine in my opinion as well.
22 Mar 2021, 18:49 PM
#30
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1

Reminder that OST do not have T4 infantry mowing machines and Brummbar is supposed to help them deal with inf blobs/elite Allied infantry iirc.

But it's not like they added the brummbar with WFA. It was here against the soviets who had worse infantry than Ost for quite a long time. And they have the werfer in the same tier as well for anti-blob

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Mar 2021, 14:34 PMLeo251
Also allies can double equip ANY infantry with double handed AT to help, (even the cheapest inf), which is a big advantage over Axis. Just use them well.

This is irrelevant against a brummbar. The TDs do just fine like you said, but recommending AT infantry against a brummbar is not a good idea

They work great if you block the brumbarr with a flanking medium. But any AT will do well under that situation
22 Mar 2021, 20:12 PM
#31
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17909 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Mar 2021, 14:03 PMEsxile


I think Vipper pointed out Balance team mentality enabling even more this way of playing, not player's mentality. Rushing late game unit should be indeed a viable strategy but no so easily rewarding.

Well, community bitching constantly over last 5 years pretty much removed any and all impact of light vehicle phase and dual ATG keeps in check all meds well, so you don't exactly have any other option but to rush late game units, everything before that was made into a meme, because population can't cope with the fact that most of them should stay away from balance forum and never go out of strategy and mentoring forums.
22 Mar 2021, 20:35 PM
#32
avatar of Lady Xenarra

Posts: 953


But it's not like they added the brummbar with WFA. It was here against the soviets who had worse infantry than Ost for quite a long time. And they have the werfer in the same tier as well for anti-blob


Ehh I wasn't around for the time period in question, but wasn't the Brummbar also a meme unit for years? Werfer now has reliable anti-blob. Werfer last patch was the ultimate RNG machine lol
22 Mar 2021, 21:29 PM
#33
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1


Ehh I wasn't around for the time period in question, but wasn't the Brummbar also a meme unit for years? Werfer now has reliable anti-blob. Werfer last patch was the ultimate RNG machine lol

It wasn't bad it just wasnt as necessary. And tech structure was completely different back then for both factions so it's hard to compare really. Point is it was there to begin with

The werfer was already good against blobs. Not quite sure what you mean by ultimate rng machine, pretty sure that's reserved for something like B4. Sure it's not as good anti-blob as shotgun katyusha, but that's the best anti-blob tool in the entire game

There's a reason they nerfed the recharge time vet bonuses on all rocket arty, including werfer. It's main barrage is plenty good still. The brumm leans slightly OP for me but I feel like it's less used in 1v1. Might knock it out entirely if they nerf it anymore
23 Mar 2021, 05:47 AM
#34
avatar of Flyingsmonster

Posts: 155

I just wish it was more like a glass cannon. It should punish blobs, but tanks should be able to reliably penetrate it frontally. It's just so infuriating to see it bounce jackson and su-85 shots, even fireflies bounce its frontal armor occasionally. It just feels like it's too survivable.

Maybe that's just the current meta though, it feels like almost every game a OST player in team games is rushing 2 mg42 into pgrens into Brummbars.


It wasn't bad it just wasnt as necessary. And tech structure was completely different back then for both factions so it's hard to compare really. Point is it was there to begin with

The werfer was already good against blobs. Not quite sure what you mean by ultimate rng machine, pretty sure that's reserved for something like B4. Sure it's not as good anti-blob as shotgun katyusha, but that's the best anti-blob tool in the entire game

There's a reason they nerfed the recharge time vet bonuses on all rocket arty, including werfer. It's main barrage is plenty good still. The brumm leans slightly OP for me but I feel like it's less used in 1v1. Might knock it out entirely if they nerf it anymore


I'd argue that the Calliope is the best anti-blob tool in the game honestly, Katyusha in my experience is great, but much easier to avoid than the calliope and much more prone to RNG, whereas if you get a good calliope barrage you're pretty much guaranteed a few wipes.
23 Mar 2021, 07:49 AM
#35
avatar of NaOCl

Posts: 378

Conscripts are the only squad of being able to run up to a Brummbar due to 7 men and oorah, and even this at a hefty MP price.


This shouldn't be possible to do to a brumm, that kind of defies its purpose.
23 Mar 2021, 07:51 AM
#36
avatar of blancat

Posts: 810

Nerf AOE dmg or ROF
23 Mar 2021, 08:47 AM
#37
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13477 | Subs: 1

I just wish it was more like a glass cannon.

There is very little reason to move away from it real design as heavily armored vehicle.
23 Mar 2021, 08:58 AM
#38
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3112 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Mar 2021, 07:49 AMNaOCl

This shouldn't be possible to do to a brumm, that kind of defies its purpose.

Well otherwise it would not be snareable.
Brummbar is hard to snare in general, even if you flank. But this is partially a game mode issue, since flanking in 1v1 and 2v2 is much easier.
23 Mar 2021, 09:36 AM
#39
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1


I'd argue that the Calliope is the best anti-blob tool in the game honestly, Katyusha in my experience is great, but much easier to avoid than the calliope and much more prone to RNG, whereas if you get a good calliope barrage you're pretty much guaranteed a few wipes.

Yeah I guess it is better performance wise. But the fact that you have the Katy available no matter what is still a big edge over the calliope
23 Mar 2021, 10:08 AM
#40
avatar of Wiking

Posts: 60

Do you think Brummbar is able to go toe-to-toe against double ATG? In my humble experience it does, basically combining HE Sherman and Churchill strengths.

Maybe it should trade some of the frontal armour for the health increase - roughly the same survivability but more consistent and less RNG? I think KV-1 and Churchill had same changes in the past
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