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[Winter Balance Update] USF Feedback

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1 Dec 2020, 13:09 PM
#121
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3

Greyhound needs to arrive at 3CP instead of 4CP.
1 Dec 2020, 18:20 PM
#122
avatar of CODGUY

Posts: 883

Greyhound needs to arrive at 3CP instead of 4CP.


Not even that. It should just be buildable from the barracks like the M3 HT after T2.

I'm not onboard with the higher vet requirements for RETs. The unit's combat performance is so bad it can basically be ignored by axis infantry as it is, why bother nerfing it's vet requirements?

Why nerf Jackson again? I get axis players hate it but so what? It feels like they're the ones deciding what changes need to be made to other factions.

I mean if you look at the forum here you'll notice most posts are made from the point of view of playing against USF, UKF, or Soviets. Most OST posts go the other way.

The point is, if you're playing against USF you are supposed to hate Jacksons, Pack Howitzer, double BARs ect. That doesn't mean any of those units should be nerfed.

They never will nerf the MG42 or Panzergrens.
1 Dec 2020, 19:23 PM
#123
avatar of Dharx

Posts: 83

jump backJump back to quoted post1 Dec 2020, 18:20 PMCODGUY

I mean if you look at the forum here you'll notice most posts are made from the point of view of playing against USF, UKF, or Soviets. Most OST posts go the other way.

The point is, if you're playing against USF you are supposed to hate Jacksons, Pack Howitzer, double BARs ect. That doesn't mean any of those units should be nerfed.

They never will nerf the MG42 or Panzergrens.


And that's why balancing should be based on statistics, not forum complaints. Player opinions can be a source of inspiration how to tackle imbalance, but not a way to identify it. But I assume the balance team knows that...
1 Dec 2020, 22:52 PM
#124
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4928

Both are AI specialist vehicles of similar price, its only natural they will put some kind of fight against each other.


You know it is ironic that the M5 Stuart, designed to support Infantry, and the M8 Greyhound, designed to destroy Tanks*, have opposite roles in CoH2. Theoretically the M5 Stuart would be the AI vehicle and the M8 Greyhound would be the one to counter light vehicles and engine-shot tanks.

*In 1941, obsolete by the time it entered service, and used for reconnaissance instead.
2 Dec 2020, 02:12 AM
#125
avatar of theekvn

Posts: 305



That is literally impossible. The minimal pen for vet 2+ Jackson HVAP is 325, the Tiger's armor is 300. They have 100% chance to pen at all ranges. And by the way, this particular scenario won't change with the nerf.


In real gameplay, it can happen anyway. Not to mention " Ghost shell" bugs
2 Dec 2020, 06:24 AM
#126
avatar of Applejack

Posts: 353

I wonder why there is no about Rifle company in this patch. Looking at the tournament that have been going on up to now There is few choices of rifleman companies. The other skills of the Rifleman Company are very useful. But it's simple why the rifleman company wasn't chosen. It is rifle company that is not very attractive to top users.

Therefore, I think that other companies that have not appeared in the tournament must be reviewed through this patch. It is necessary to integrate the rifle flare with the field defense of the rifleman company.

And I think it's good to add a ranger squad as a new skill. The Ranger squad needs the same skills as the Soviet penal squad. In order for the Ranger squad to perform an assault mission, it is necessary to be able to install or throw explosives. and Ranger squad's skill points need to be adjusted from 3 to 2.

Unlike the Sherman 76, the Easy8 needs to be able to be used as an outfighter tank. As a user who wants to see the diversity of U.S. tank units, the easy8 is really a tank with no personality. Even if the anti-infantry ability is lower than now, it will be more useful if you increase the range of Easy8 to about 45-50.

Of course, I think that there are many friends who disagree with my opinion. However, whenever I watch the Company of Heroes 2 tournament, the game looks like a duplicate. Particularly after the suppression of the call-in unit, the game is not very fun.

I have been playing games for the past 6 years, and I think that there is not simply a game balance aspect that there are few 1v1 users like now. Starcraft, a genre of strategy games, is also not perfect in balance. However, I think adjustments are necessary to the extent that there are no units that are not used well. In particular, easy8 needs some kind of buff, just like StarCraft's Goliath received Charon booster.


The E8 just isn't good compared to the 76. I made a thread on it a while back but it all boils down to the 76 doing everything better at a slightly cheaper cost.

The E8's special is supposed to have no scatter while moving because of the HVSS suspension but the nerf to its main gun makes this special irrelevant especially how bad it is against armour. It used to slay infantry with its main gun (think Panzer 4 projectile combined with no scatter while moving). Without this bonus, the tank becomes really garbage for its cost. The other Rifle commander abilities are pretty lackluster too compared to the newer community made ones like Urban Assault.

More info here: https://www.coh2.org/topic/105224/winter-patch-current-state-of-doctrinal-armour/page/1#post_id818268
2 Dec 2020, 07:19 AM
#127
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1510



The E8 just isn't good compared to the 76. I made a thread on it a while back but it all boils down to the 76 doing everything better at a slightly cheaper cost.

The E8's special is supposed to have no scatter while moving because of the HVSS suspension but the nerf to its main gun makes this special irrelevant especially how bad it is against armour. It used to slay infantry with its main gun (think Panzer 4 projectile combined with no scatter while moving). Without this bonus, the tank becomes really garbage for its cost. The other Rifle commander abilities are pretty lackluster too compared to the newer community made ones like Urban Assault.

More info here: https://www.coh2.org/topic/105224/winter-patch-current-state-of-doctrinal-armour/page/1#post_id818268


Pak howi should have accuracy nerf and not AOE and Pershing along with E8 should get in some way buffed to justify their price.
Scott is meh anyway so the nerf does not do much.
2 Dec 2020, 07:42 AM
#128
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13416 | Subs: 1



The E8 just isn't good compared to the 76. I made a thread on it a while back but it all boils down to the 76 doing everything better at a slightly cheaper cost.

That is because the 76mm is OP (part from everything else its vet bonuses are superior to other Shermans), but it does not everything better, Easy8 is more durable having more HP/armor.
2 Dec 2020, 09:42 AM
#129
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1510

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Dec 2020, 07:42 AMVipper

That is because the 76mm is OP (part from everything else its vet bonuses are superior to other Shermans), but it does not everything better, Easy8 is more durable having more HP/armor.


In what universe is a doctrinal 76mm with penetration values that range from 165 to 220 with ammo switch and reload of 6.1s OP. It's a strong tank, but you pretty much like to throw around the word OP when it comes to any allied faction so I guess nothing new. Same as Pfussies thread. Strong but not OP (same as how you are still saying that the brummbar is UP)
2 Dec 2020, 09:50 AM
#130
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13416 | Subs: 1



In what universe is a doctrinal 76mm with penetration values that range from 165 to 220 with ammo switch and reload of 6.1s OP.

In the tournament where it was build instead of the M36. The unit get at vet 2 supeior bonuses than other sherman get in vet 3. As for ROF Sherman 76 can benefit from a number of bonuses and fire faster than most other tanks.


It's a strong tank, but you pretty much like to throw around the word OP when it comes to any allied faction so I guess nothing new.

This is a feeback thread, at least here try to post about the faction and not me.


Same as Pfussies thread. Strong but not OP (same as how you are still saying that the brummbar is UP)

You are simply delusional, I have not said Brumbar is up.
2 Dec 2020, 09:53 AM
#131
avatar of NorthFireZ

Posts: 211



In what universe is a doctrinal 76mm with penetration values that range from 165 to 220 with ammo switch and reload of 6.1s OP. It's a strong tank, but you pretty much like to throw around the word OP when it comes to any allied faction so I guess nothing new. Same as Pfussies thread. Strong but not OP (same as how you are still saying that the brummbar is UP)


Naw man 76 is a broken busted ass tank with borderline insane vet bonuses. The reload is actually 4.1-4.5 not 6.1 unless you talk about hvap which you don't need vs infantry or the most commonly seen ost P4. The DPM is the highest among the medium tanks factoring radio net, vet bonuses, and combined arms. No other medium can match that level of pure destructive firepower.

Like I know we all like to shit on vipper but 76 is a busted tank and needs to be looked at.
2 Dec 2020, 10:01 AM
#133
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13416 | Subs: 1


What means, contrary to what you constantly say, Jackson is not OP and doesn't require any nerfs ...

Well the mod team seem to have a different opinion.

Let me explain this to you, this:

"M36 Jackson
With the reduction on armour of certain Axis tanks, along with the M36 receiving improved penetration from previous patches, the unit no longer needs high veterancy bonuses for penetration.
- Veterancy 2 penetration bonus from +30% to +20%"

is nerf.
2 Dec 2020, 11:43 AM
#134
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 2434 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Dec 2020, 10:01 AMVipper

Well the mod team seem to have a different opinion.

Let me explain this to you, this:

"M36 Jackson
With the reduction on armour of certain Axis tanks, along with the M36 receiving improved penetration from previous patches, the unit no longer needs high veterancy bonuses for penetration.
- Veterancy 2 penetration bonus from +30% to +20%"

is nerf.


The penetration nerf on the Jackson was long overdue considering it reaches an insane 390 max penetration with vet and HVAP which is just silly. Why should a super mobile, 60 range, 640 HP TD have more than 100% chance to penetrate a KT while for example the Firefly, which costs exactly the same and is way slower only has a 56% chance even at vet 3 and even with all the expensive muni based upgrade that the Jackson doesn't have. It never made much sense and I am glad the balance team finally came to the same conclusion and plans nerfs on the penetration vet bonus of the Jackson.

2 Dec 2020, 12:22 PM
#135
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13416 | Subs: 1



The penetration nerf on the Jackson was long overdue considering it reaches an insane 390 max penetration with vet and HVAP which is just silly. Why should a super mobile, 60 range, 640 HP TD have more than 100% chance to penetrate a KT while for example the Firefly, which costs exactly the same and is way slower only has a 56% chance even at vet 3 and even with all the expensive muni based upgrade that the Jackson doesn't have. It never made much sense and I am glad the balance team finally came to the same conclusion and plans nerfs on the penetration vet bonus of the Jackson.


True, the vet bonuses of the M36/SU-85 where designed for when their base stat where lower. And the XP value and Pop of the SU-85 are appropriate for its prepatch status.


Part of the problem with patches is that they try to balance units in vet 0 and seem to forget veterancy bonuses or other factor like XP value, reinforcement speed, pop....

That has lead certain unit although they seem to be balanced to actually be OP or UP.

In this case the vet 2 bonuses of Sherman 76mm are those of T-34/76 a unit with far lesser base stat and Sh76 get on top of that the powerful network.

That is why I repeatedly pointed out that patch focusing on this secondary aspects if very long overdue.

On the other hand the mod team show some promise with changes to Shermans/PMD-38/Stuka changes.
2 Dec 2020, 13:02 PM
#140
avatar of GiaA

Posts: 692 | Subs: 2

Very good changes.

My critiques:

1. USF desparately needs a sniper counter. Possibly an upgradable snipeshot ability for either the captain or the RE?

2. Without having tested it (there's a lack of players willing to test the mod unfortunately so I personally have only tested soviets and wehr) the Scott change seems like an overnerf. The scott can be problematic but its strength strongly depends on the map and the army compositions. I see the problem that it can be nearly uncounterable (similar to the sniper) in certain stalemate situations that tend to occur on maps like langres and crossroads or on crossing in the woods in 2v2. But fact is that this unit is fairly rarely seen in 1v1 games simply due to the fact that it brings you one medium tank/td down in an even game. I feel like with this change it would basically go extinct in 1v1. I also don't understand why the vet 1 smoke isn't removed as a first step towards decreased survivability.

3. WC51 nerf might not be enough. The low cost of the WC51 and the super strong doctrinal context would probably still make it the go to option for USF. It will still fight infantry super cost efficiently early on. The exposure to small arms fire won't make that big of a difference because it can self repair without any costs. Unlike with the Bren Carrier you don't give up any capping power using it. And it still has the mid game utility of functioning as a bazooka/satchel carrier or mark target deliverer.
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