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[Winter Balance Update] USF Feedback

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26 Nov 2020, 21:42 PM
#1
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 2724 | Subs: 8

Please use this thread for all USF-specific feedback on the Winter Balance Preview

Scope
In regards to your feedback, please keep the following in mind:
The focus of this patch is: Core Armies, Meta Problems, And Quality of Life Improvements.


USF patch notes:




Here is the link to the steam Preview mod:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2299363388
26 Nov 2020, 22:10 PM
#2
avatar of TomDRV

Posts: 97

Mortar smoke (suggestion for all factions but no general thread)
I like it, but my gripe has never been that I can't use it enough, but that when I do use it, it takes too long to arrive. The engagement has ended or the other player has displaced his units of his own accord. It's not so noticeable with the regular barrage because that's not as often used as part of a coordinated manoeuvre.

Could core mortar-crew rotation speeds be increased for all factions? I think a big reason people don't use them is they're not responsive (half tracks feel noticeably more snappy). If this knocks on to the HE barrage, the ROF on both (HE and smoke) could be reduced. Individual smoke rounds last long enough so that it would just extend the overall smoked-up time for smoke barrages.

Sandbags (suggestion for all factions but no general thread)
By treating specific units differently, it would be a lot for new players to consider the build-times in their decision making and lead them to do things when not realising some units build slower. Can the slower sandbag build speed be standardised across all non-engineer units?

HMG AP ammo (applies to MG42 too)
When the AP ammo ability is used, it loads a new ammo belt, correct?
Instead of a timer, can it be changed so that specific belt is the AP ammo and the ability lasts until the HMGs next reload? Reduces the ability of vehicles to just kite away or sight block for 30secs nullify the muni-investment. But the other player could also put infantry in the line of fire to use up the ammo belt. Can use the ability's timing clock to show % ammo belt remaining.

Rifleman AT nades
Reduce animation length? :D

LT vs CAP
With the new Stuart changes, just want to mention I'm curious how both will remain attractive?

I'm disappointed the USF armour line-up wasn't mentioned (although I know it would need to be coordinated with their commanders) I think there's potential to get more unit variety there. State of USF doctrinal armour
26 Nov 2020, 22:51 PM
#3
avatar of CODGUY

Posts: 838

USF is generally in a good spot I don't have much to ask for myself except for the following:

- Would like to see the Jackson get it's armor back, if not then at least lower its fuel cost back down to 140 fuel.

- Give the Easy 8 WP rounds, and Rifle Company M1919, would be nice.

- Maybe lower the cost slightly of a few overpriced units, namely Assault Engineers, Pathfinders, Rear Echeleons.

- If they only make one change for USF though, that should be to fix the Pershing. It's a terrible heavy tank that doesn't do anything well. This is really the most important change they should make to USF IMHO.
26 Nov 2020, 22:54 PM
#4
avatar of TomDRV

Posts: 97

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Nov 2020, 22:51 PMCODGUY
USF is generally in a good spot I don't have much to ask for myself except for the following:

- Would like to see the Jackson get it's armor back, if not then at least lower its fuel cost back down to 140 fuel.

- Give the Easy 8 WP rounds, and Rifle Company M1919, would be nice.

- Maybe lower the cost slightly of a few overpriced units, namely Assault Engineers, Pathfinders, Rear Echeleons.

- If they only make one change for USF though, that should be to fix the Pershing. It's a terrible heavy tank that doesn't do anything well. This is really the most important change they should make to USF IMHO.


The patch is for core armies, not commanders and their units.
27 Nov 2020, 00:26 AM
#5
avatar of Goldenpunch

Posts: 94

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Nov 2020, 22:54 PMTomDRV


The patch is for core armies, not commanders and their units.


Why Calliope and WC 51 get nerfed then ? Talk with logic.
27 Nov 2020, 01:01 AM
#6
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 621

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Nov 2020, 22:51 PMCODGUY
USF is generally in a good spot I don't have much to ask for myself except for the following:

- Would like to see the Jackson get it's armor back, if not then at least lower its fuel cost back down to 140 fuel.

- Give the Easy 8 WP rounds, and Rifle Company M1919, would be nice.

- Maybe lower the cost slightly of a few overpriced units, namely Assault Engineers, Pathfinders, Rear Echeleons.

- If they only make one change for USF though, that should be to fix the Pershing. It's a terrible heavy tank that doesn't do anything well. This is really the most important change they should make to USF IMHO.


Jackson is fine. Easy8 needs buffing but that's obviously not in this patch. Rifle company does not need M1919. It needs a rework but again, not in this patch.
Rear echelons are cheap as it is and can carry 2x zooks for late game scaring away Non-heavy tanks. The reinforce reduction is welcome.

Agreed with the Pershing. Let's say the Pershing is normalized to one: so ROF is 1, survivability is 1, penetration is 1, agility is 1... etc. If tank X has slightly lower ROF then it's got a ROF value 0.75 and if the ROF is slightly better then it's 1.25 .... (increments of 0.25) etc.

Tiger compared to Pershing:
ROF: 1.5
Survivability: 1.5
Agility: 0.75
Ability: 1.5
AI power: 1 (MGs and abilities enhance this from 0.75)
AI one shot potential: 0.75
AT power: 1.25 (going against lower armoured vehicles and better ROF improve that from 1)
Accuracy: 0.75

From my point of view, Tiger, which is comparable to pershing in terms of cost (except that it's 2 measly pop cap higher), has much better stats and trade offs compared to Pershing. If anyone says "but Pershing has better AI". True, it does. But it does not have better AI by a factor 2 or 3, but by some couple of percent. Pershing's AI is 10% or so better than Tiger which does not justify having worse pretty much all aspects except for agility. Combined arms with a Tiger will always win vs combined arms with Pershing. Especially if you manage to keep rifles alive so that the population cap is the problem (if you go for pak howis and ATGs, which are poor vs Tiger unless you have the munitions, or rangers).

Calliope nerf is also warranted. Pak howi... I don't know. Whereaboos screeched about it being OP but it's useless vs non-static opponents and super useless vs any "catch out of position" plays, which induces bleed. Don't know why you would nerf the near and mid distance by 50%. That's a lot. That's a big nerf. Blobs alert kind of nerf I think, time will tell.


This is the biggest WTF:
People screeched and compared the Scott to Brummbar, and the balance team gave in it seems. Which potential does M8 have? Pretty much every game I have played with USF, I always went for double Scott since only one is useless against anything but the biggest 6+ squad blobs. And since it won't fire over obstacles unless you direct it with ground fire..... It needs sight to autofire, so I don't quite see how scott was in any way overperforming for this kind of nerf.
The fact that scott is really micro intensive because of that autofire thing, how did it exactly deserve a nerf?

How does an arty vehicle, which, if behind any sort of sight blocker, is given a command to attack a squad, will not attack the squad but instead try to get as close as possible and then attack, deserve a nerf? You nerf the autofire by a huge margin, especially with that Panther range and buff barrage by a insignificant margin. So now, Scott sits in base until it can barrage with it's low damage shells that are only good vs heavy campers.

Sturm, can you explain the reasoning behind that Scott nerf? Right now it's nothing but a glorified smoke dispenser.
27 Nov 2020, 01:29 AM
#7
avatar of TheGentlemenTroll

Posts: 1020 | Subs: 1



Why Calliope and WC 51 get nerfed then ? Talk with logic.


Let me quote the OP for you:

"The focus of this patch is: Core Armies, Meta Problems, And Quality of Life Improvements."

27 Nov 2020, 01:45 AM
#8
avatar of CODGUY

Posts: 838



Jackson is fine. Easy8 needs buffing but that's obviously not in this patch. Rifle company does not need M1919. It needs a rework but again, not in this patch.
Rear echelons are cheap as it is and can carry 2x zooks for late game scaring away Non-heavy tanks. The reinforce reduction is welcome.

Agreed with the Pershing. Let's say the Pershing is normalized to one: so ROF is 1, survivability is 1, penetration is 1, agility is 1... etc. If tank X has slightly lower ROF then it's got a ROF value 0.75 and if the ROF is slightly better then it's 1.25 .... (increments of 0.25) etc.

Tiger compared to Pershing:
ROF: 1.5
Survivability: 1.5
Agility: 0.75
Ability: 1.5
AI power: 1 (MGs and abilities enhance this from 0.75)
AI one shot potential: 0.75
AT power: 1.25 (going against lower armoured vehicles and better ROF improve that from 1)
Accuracy: 0.75

From my point of view, Tiger, which is comparable to pershing in terms of cost (except that it's 2 measly pop cap higher), has much better stats and trade offs compared to Pershing. If anyone says "but Pershing has better AI". True, it does. But it does not have better AI by a factor 2 or 3, but by some couple of percent. Pershing's AI is 10% or so better than Tiger which does not justify having worse pretty much all aspects except for agility. Combined arms with a Tiger will always win vs combined arms with Pershing. Especially if you manage to keep rifles alive so that the population cap is the problem (if you go for pak howis and ATGs, which are poor vs Tiger unless you have the munitions, or rangers).

Calliope nerf is also warranted. Pak howi... I don't know. Whereaboos screeched about it being OP but it's useless vs non-static opponents and super useless vs any "catch out of position" plays, which induces bleed. Don't know why you would nerf the near and mid distance by 50%. That's a lot. That's a big nerf. Blobs alert kind of nerf I think, time will tell.


This is the biggest WTF:
People screeched and compared the Scott to Brummbar, and the balance team gave in it seems. Which potential does M8 have? Pretty much every game I have played with USF, I always went for double Scott since only one is useless against anything but the biggest 6+ squad blobs. And since it won't fire over obstacles unless you direct it with ground fire..... It needs sight to autofire, so I don't quite see how scott was in any way overperforming for this kind of nerf.
The fact that scott is really micro intensive because of that autofire thing, how did it exactly deserve a nerf?

How does an arty vehicle, which, if behind any sort of sight blocker, is given a command to attack a squad, will not attack the squad but instead try to get as close as possible and then attack, deserve a nerf? You nerf the autofire by a huge margin, especially with that Panther range and buff barrage by a insignificant margin. So now, Scott sits in base until it can barrage with it's low damage shells that are only good vs heavy campers.

Sturm, can you explain the reasoning behind that Scott nerf? Right now it's nothing but a glorified smoke dispenser.


Yeah I read through the changes and I'm surpised they want to go after the M8 Scott. That's a unit I rarely use and good giref it's not THAT potent, it's a very thin skinned vehicle that is easily countered with any AT.

They want to nerf the .50 cal? WTF why? It's already one of the most expensive MGs and it's not nearly as good as one shall-not-nammed MG that is non-doctrinal T0 that NEVER gets any nerfs.

27 Nov 2020, 02:22 AM
#9
avatar of Elpern

Posts: 63

Love all the usf changes, most notably needed are the scott nerfs, 50 cal nerfs and wc51 nerfs from a 1v1 perspective. Id also like the balanceteam to take a look at the IR Pathfinder's artillery barrage, while expensive it hits too bloody fast and it just feels like a cheesy one click delete button. Maybe increase the time 1-2s and perhaps lower its cost as compensation? Not sure what game others in this thread are playing
27 Nov 2020, 02:40 AM
#10
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 7740 | Subs: 2

Quick question: does the Scott benefit from the smoke changes as well? If not it should.


Might as well be the time:

-Swap Scott with Pak Howie and rework Howie into barrage weapon only? This will give that "indirect late game" firepower to USF?
27 Nov 2020, 02:48 AM
#11
avatar of Elpern

Posts: 63



-Swap Scott with Pak Howie and rework Howie into barrage weapon only? This will give that "indirect late game" firepower to USF?
interesting suggestion, though I think the scope of the patch kind of makes this hard to do since you're effectively turning the soft arty piece into a hard arty piece, and getting a scott at light vehicle timings (obviously a weaker variant) would turn painful real quick in conjunction with stuart aa ht aswell as the amount of vet it will have accumulated at the time it currently arrives
27 Nov 2020, 03:22 AM
#12
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 7740 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Nov 2020, 02:48 AMElpern
interesting suggestion, though I think the scope of the patch kind of makes this hard to do since you're effectively turning the soft arty piece into a hard arty piece, and getting a scott at light vehicle timings (obviously a weaker variant) would turn painful real quick in conjunction with stuart aswell as the amount of vet it will have accumulated at the time it currently arrives


The pak Howie already gets access to heat shell with vet, so it will mostly be a matter of adjusting cost n cooldowns if that were the base power of the barrage. As well as number of shells.


The Scott is getting nerfed in direct fire mode which is it's main problem. The dmg of direct fire could be reduce as well to 80 and the armor slightly reduce by 10. At which point it would be not much different than others LV for it's timing.

Not sure if you are referring to AA HT + Scott or implying of going for both LT + Cpt for both the Stuart and the Scott.
27 Nov 2020, 03:22 AM
#13
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
Director of Moderation Badge

Posts: 3808 | Subs: 1

My thoughts are primarily from 3v3/4v4 AT experience. If something is not mentioned, then I think it's acceptable.

27 Nov 2020, 03:51 AM
#14
avatar of Ulaire Minya

Posts: 347

Scott and pack howie nerfs are kinda undeserved.
Howie is already super vulnerable to wipes and getting caught out of position.

Scott should lose the smoke canister and that's it.
27 Nov 2020, 04:14 AM
#15
avatar of Spanky
Senior Strategist Badge

Posts: 1686 | Subs: 2

I also agree that Scott nerf is not needed.
Calliope doesn't need to be nerfed, compare it to the other rocket artillery and its on bar with the rest. Every single rocket arty is deadly in the hands of a competent player.
27 Nov 2020, 04:35 AM
#16
avatar of JibberJabberJobber

Posts: 1513 | Subs: 3


  • BARs: Don't see the need for these to be buffed on rifles. Unsure why this is believed to be needed.


True that it's not as necessary now that G43s on Pfusies consume all weapons slots and 5 men Grens will be less popular. That said, 33% droprate was very high for a squad that has to get close and personal to be effective (drops a BAR around every 3th time a rifle drops to 1 man). We will have to see if dropping them is too rare now.


  • Pack Howitzer: This new AoE profile will require testing, but from 1st impression I think this is the wrong way to balance this unit. You've increased the scatter and are now decreasing its lethality marginally. Seems like this will turn it into an even worse RNG cannon. It will still get destroyed by the stuka zu fuss because it's 5 men.


What would be the best way to help the Pack Howitzer avoid rocket arty: improved movement speed? decrew at 2 men? faster desetup time?

  • M8 Scott: Oh boy, I hate scotts currently because they're too durable but this is just classic relic right here. This is the 3x nerf, you don't see this unit for the next 2 years type deal. Completely in the wrong direction IMO. The issue is currently the mobility combined with the durability and the damage. So instead of addressing some from each a little bit you went all into damage profile. Range nerf, scatter nerf, AoE nerf, removal of vet 2 scatter bonus to autofire. Now this unit needs barrage help IIRC, but we don't need to tear the unit to oblivion on autofire here. Durability is not enough to get this unit to see usage. It needs to either go to a 2 shot kill, or remove the smoke cannister, and I really suggest not nerfing the range from 60. You could argue 55, but 50 is just death sentence to any sort of competent player. If they can't contest AT guns then they need to be used on lone infantry on flanks, and why would I use that when I can just buy an HE sherman and have far better wipe potential.


The changes are still a bit experimental. Ideally the barrage buffs (more reliable damage at long range, scatter bonus with vet, better starting scatter) should carry the weaker autofire now, but it might get changed again if necessary. It was actually tried to make the Scott 2 shot kill, but it either turned it into a deadlier pack howi or a less effective mortar, the Scott serves its niche as Sniper arty well.

It will also have to been seen if a range reduction was the best way to make it more vulnerable. I don't think removing the smoke would've done much, and making it 2 shots to kill would make it a bit too vulnerable to double AT guns. A smaller range reduction or a speed nerf would be good alternative options if this is too harsh.

  • Jackson: Nerf means basically nothing. Off the top of my head, you're bringing the vet 2 no HVAP pen from 286 max range to 264. This will still pen a panther 100% at max range pre vet 2, and a small chance to bounce once it gets its armor at vet 2. Now again the issue with the jackson isn't the pen, well it partially is because the vet + the HVAP is a bit much but the real issue is the jackson cannot be caught. It's simply too fast with no blatant weakness and you're basically relying on the maps to catch the jackson off guard. If the jackson has its mobility limited by the map then it's less of an issue, without the correction from the map, it isn't contestable by armor.


It's true it's hard to catch, but that's kind of necessary with stock USF's lack of impactful mines (aside from the M20), lack of meaty tanks and muni consuming AT guns that require a teching decision. Mobility and range are the only reliable ways for Jacksons with a stock roster to defend themselves.

This is also the third in a series of soft nerfs to the Jackson (+5 fuel, less armor vs P4 and now slightly less pen vs heavies), now also consider the Panther gets an accuracy boost, all together they do lower the effectiveness of the Jackson slighlty.

  • Calliope: Like the jackson, this nerf means nothing. It doesn't matter if it takes an additional 10 seconds to recharge if you're guaranteed a wipe everytime it is. This unit does not need 400HP and 160 frontal armor. Reduce the cost for all I care, but it needs to be killable. And that says nothing about its lethality from dumping rockets at min range.


It's a consistency change to bring it in-line with the rocket arty recharge reduction for other factions' their rocket arty. Most commander stuff won't have their performance touched for now.
27 Nov 2020, 05:32 AM
#17
avatar of IntoTheRain

Posts: 80

Not a lot to be excited about as USF.

USF got screwed in team games. This patch hits all their Arty and the Jackson, which are their only real selling points.

1v1 they won't be super different. The Pack Howie looks a little dubious now with its massive scatter no longer being offset by its excellent damage. The 50 cal changes likewise hurt, not sure why USF can't keep at least some of its faster setup time to compliment its mobility theme. The Rifle changes probably won't affect much, I can't imagine firing off enough snares or grenades for it to be relevant that early.

Isn't the smoke on the USF mortar bugged? The delay before firing is insane.

WC51 is actually getting off comically easy, and still has an officers worth of abilities. Maybe the short range means it will never live to use them, but its still pure upside for a unit that costs as much as a Kubel while being far stronger.

Not sure where the idea of BAR drop rates being a problem came from.
27 Nov 2020, 06:14 AM
#18
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
Director of Moderation Badge

Posts: 3808 | Subs: 1

Reply to JibberJabberJobber. Lengthy, hence the spoiler.

27 Nov 2020, 07:14 AM
#19
avatar of Aarotron

Posts: 501

Baffling scott changes indeed. Not sure about damage drop especially. Riflemen snare change is welcome indeed. 50 cal nerfs are reasonable, taking note what a beast it still is. M20 buff is really nice, although how much it helps remains to be seen as lack of zook still makes it vulnerable.
27 Nov 2020, 09:30 AM
#20
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 621

Baffling scott changes indeed. Not sure about damage drop especially. Riflemen snare change is welcome indeed. 50 cal nerfs are reasonable, taking note what a beast it still is. M20 buff is really nice, although how much it helps remains to be seen as lack of zook still makes it vulnerable.


M20 is still useless unless you completely close the range for the MG. It can serve only as a mine dispenser and sniper discoverer. Even with these buffs it's meaningless, especially since the removal of zooks. .50 cal nerfs are reasonable. Scott def does not deserve a nerf. It took a big autofire nerf and got a slight barrage buff. Basically did a -10 on it and then a +2. It's still a hard minus eight. Pak howi also didn't deserve a nerf in terms of damage output. Why would I even use it now in teamgames where it can easily be wiped by stuka/werfer/lefh and in turn will never again scare away a squad because they know they can survive the first shot easily and reposition, instead of constantly repositioning. Scott, even less so now. Played a couple of games. Scott is useless. Pak howi is still usable but no longer takes 50% of a squads HP from on hit. I really don't know why they nerfed heavy USF mortars.
I'm only speaking from a 3v3+ point of view.
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