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russian armor

"Close the pocket" OP?

28 Jun 2020, 02:25 AM
#1
avatar of mr.matrix300

Posts: 257

I am really surprised, that (almost ) noone ever complained about this ability.
It can basically destroy the entire enemy army for just some ammunition.

There are two things in particular, that made me come to the conclusion, that this ability is OP ( I am someone that frequently abused this ability myself, so this is not a one sided " I lost to this , so plz nerf " - Post ) :

- It fires way too fast, once you are cut off you often have not enough time to retreat your troops

- Even before the first shell lands, it somehow puts all your vehicles in a " engaging enemy" state. What does this mean ? Well ... when you are using the " repair vehicle" ability of the Russian tanks ( the one from Guards Motor Regiment for instance ) you can only disable the ablity when you are not in combat. So your tanks can not switch out of " repair mode " and will wait, until the combat is over, which results in their destruction in this case.

Also: - The " capture points " ability for Vehicles is way too fast. It should be a little bit slowed down in order to give the enemy time to react.


28 Jun 2020, 02:30 AM
#2
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
Director of Moderation Badge

Posts: 3656 | Subs: 1

It's just cheese. It's essentially an "I win" button if you pull it off but rarely actually happens and is map dependant. It's more of a noob trap for OST players. It would be better if it was reworked, but I suppose anything less than an "I win" button would be a nerf, so yes it should be. The downside is that it is a very unique ability and commander.
28 Jun 2020, 02:44 AM
#3
avatar of mr.matrix300

Posts: 257


but rarely actually happens and is map dependant. It's more of a noob trap for OST players.


With an AT it is actually quite easy to pull of ( especially in 3 vs 3 / 4 vs 4 )


is map dependant


Yea. One some maps it is almost useless, while on Maps like Red ball it is a " I win " button
28 Jun 2020, 03:32 AM
#4
avatar of Selvy289

Posts: 232

While an extremely unique and hard ability to pull off in a subpar doctrine, its one of those abilities that should never be in the game.

While map dependent, the worse culprit is redbull express with only 2 point attached to the home sector (and yes a arranged team makes it far easier).

The one reason I hate this ability is because its such a huge gamble that a game that you absolutely should not win becomes a game you will win and if your already winning, it and the doctrine is pointless.

It should not exist (or the doctrine as a whole).

The times that I recall this ability being used, the player's is losing heavily. I have used it myself before and still dont like it because you shoot yourself in the foot unless you do pull it off.
28 Jun 2020, 06:12 AM
#5
avatar of Taksin02

Posts: 126

too much tools to achieve C.T.P. (nah it's all of them)

remove 1 of them it'll be much harder.
especially the stormtrooper



28 Jun 2020, 06:30 AM
#6
avatar of mr.matrix300

Posts: 257

The times that I recall this ability being used, the player's is losing heavily


This.

Almost everytime I used this ability it turned a clearly lost game into an clear victory.

However in a recent match I was on the receiving end of this ability. Enemy had only 50 points left. We about 450. He pulls off a "close the pocket" and destroys 3 T 34/85, one Katjuscha and multiple infantry squads ( and also troops of my allies)
28 Jun 2020, 06:57 AM
#7
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 7199 | Subs: 1

It's just cheese. It's essentially an "I win" button if you pull it off but rarely actually happens and is map dependant. It's more of a noob trap for OST players. It would be better if it was reworked, but I suppose anything less than an "I win" button would be a nerf, so yes it should be. The downside is that it is a very unique ability and commander.


This is basically the OH version of Soviets FHQ old cheese, with the exception that it doesn't work as well in smaller modes and therefore it has never got enough attention for it to get nerf/reworked.

I'm sure that if AT teams started to spam it (they generally win most games regardless) more people would complain.


I'm conflicted. It's unique and niche on one side, but aimed mostly towards been cheesy and noobstomping. It requires a specific setup to pull out which makes it extremely hard on smaller modes but on the other side of the spectrum it's easier to pull off with a bit of Stuka dive bomb coordination and the gains are far bigger (more units getting shot at).
28 Jun 2020, 11:13 AM
#8
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 2799

Absolutely not
28 Jun 2020, 12:36 PM
#9
avatar of Fire and Terror

Posts: 224

build fuel caches=> profit

and just insta retreat if the pocket was closed, you wont suffer any casulties, believe me.

It might catch support weapons but anything faster can jsut back off if your fast enough
28 Jun 2020, 12:36 PM
#10
avatar of adamírcz

Posts: 792 | Subs: 1

No

There is a hellload of things that can either counter it, or make it go wrong

Besides, you see it coming from a mile away and have time to instantly pullout infantry and vehicles
28 Jun 2020, 14:59 PM
#11
avatar of DonnieChan

Posts: 1801 | Subs: 1

28 Jun 2020, 16:03 PM
#12
avatar of SuperHansFan

Posts: 814

Anyone that says the ability is fine obviously has never played 4vs4 redball before

And just because top players can counter cheese (sim city) that doesn't mean it doesn't ruin plenty of average level games. Same logic applies here, you can have a 30min even and fun game just ruined in the space of a few seconds because of the delete enemy armies button.
28 Jun 2020, 16:38 PM
#13
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 4090 | Subs: 1

Anyone that says the ability is fine obviously has never played 4vs4 redball before

And just because top players can counter cheese (sim city) that doesn't mean it doesn't ruin plenty of average level games. Same logic applies here, you can have a 30min even and fun game just ruined in the space of a few seconds because of the delete enemy armies button.


There are other 4v maps besides redball?
Seems that's all I ever get.
Anyways, at the loading screen there's some handy info, it tells you what commanders the enemy is bringing with them, if one of them is CTP a non doc investment of 250mp will buy you enough time to respond to the enemy trying to exploit your lack of a defensive line pretty easily

But if that's too much work I suppose map makers could pull up the map, edit in a 3rd point in between the other 2 that border the base sector deep behind the front line so that pulling off one of the hardest off maps in the game is completely impossible. That sounds much easier actually. I'm not a big fan of building caches. Or laying mines. Or really doing anything. I'm waiting for the patch where the enemy just drops completely every match so I don't actually have to play at all but still have the gratification of winning. One day.... One day...
28 Jun 2020, 16:44 PM
#14
avatar of mr.matrix300

Posts: 257

build fuel caches=> profit


With an AT it is pretty easy to destroy them ( even the Stuka ability of this commander takes away about 1/3 of a caches health). And even without an AT you can simply dive in with a Pz 4 or Ostwind.



and just insta retreat if the pocket was closed, you wont suffer any casulties, believe me.


Lots of 3 vs 3 and 4 vs 4 maps are so large, that insta retreat will still result in a wipe.
Also: Some things can not be retreated, like mortar pits or T 34s , that are locked in the "repair vehicle" state


It might catch support weapons but anything faster can jsut back off if your fast enough


"It might"



if someone manages to use it well, he deserves the win


Yea ... if someone is getting anihilated the whole game, while holding only one VP at a maximum, then he obviously deserves the win simply because he was able to click the " Stuka decap" ability + " Close the pocket" ability



28 Jun 2020, 17:51 PM
#15
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 2475 | Subs: 1

More than one thing can be true here. The ability is really unique and not easy to pull off, but it's still absurd if you can pull it off and I really think it shouldn't be in the game

I don't know why anyone thinks it's fun when off-maps win games. Period. Imo most of the end-game off-maps that have a duration are too strong. Loiters, AT overwatch, CTP, etc.
28 Jun 2020, 17:56 PM
#16
avatar of SgtJonson

Posts: 88

Imho, the effort to pull it of justifies the strike. The opponents reaction justifies the damage it does.
28 Jun 2020, 19:36 PM
#18
avatar of DonnieChan

Posts: 1801 | Subs: 1



With an AT it is pretty easy to destroy them ( even the Stuka ability of this commander takes away about 1/3 of a caches health). And even without an AT you can simply dive in with a Pz 4 or Ostwind.




Lots of 3 vs 3 and 4 vs 4 maps are so large, that insta retreat will still result in a wipe.
Also: Some things can not be retreated, like mortar pits or T 34s , that are locked in the "repair vehicle" state




"It might"





Yea ... if someone is getting anihilated the whole game, while holding only one VP at a maximum, then he obviously deserves the win simply because he was able to click the " Stuka decap" ability + " Close the pocket" ability





show it 3 times in a row then
28 Jun 2020, 19:58 PM
#19
avatar of mr.matrix300

Posts: 257



show it 3 times in a row then


On Red Ball with an AT it actually might be possible to turn 3 or even more games in a row around simply by using "Close the pocket"
28 Jun 2020, 20:00 PM
#20
avatar of DonnieChan

Posts: 1801 | Subs: 1



On Red Ball with an AT it actually might be possible to turn 3 or even more games in a row around simply by using "Close the pocket"


k, show it then
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