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Should soviet Combat E ngineers be buffed?

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30 Mar 2020, 04:12 AM
#121
avatar of Mazianni

Posts: 766



What's your highest rank, and what rank player do I have to beat for it to be an acceptable replay for you then?


Honestly, I think even a basic automatch attempt with the CE strat could be illuminative, given the weaknesses I laid out. I'd be interested in a replay of even that.

You haven't told me why you think I'm wrong about CEs though, and I am curious to know, but if you feel so strongly about this topic that you would prefer to demonstrate their supposed capabilities in a replay than I can only wish you the best.
30 Mar 2020, 06:08 AM
#122
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 634



The sandbag argument doesn't hold water.

The mainlines that don't get sandbags/green cover have it on their engineers instead. Pios having sandbags instead of the mainline is a serious disadvantage, and you're misunderstanding it as an advantage. It's the same case for Rifles, except that Rear Echelons have significantly less duties - no repairs, no base-building, no anti-garrison (disadvantage actually).

I've always found it necessary to get a relatively early second pio since repairs/wires/mines/sweeping/cover building/anti-garrison/base-building duty require 2 pios combined.

I'm quite sure grenadiers would actually start being pretty good if they could build their own sandbags to protect themselves instead of getting roflstomped the moment allied infantry appears.


Only main lines that cant get stock ai upgrades should be able to build sandbags stock. Just look at how much more effective volks are then grens for just 20mp more because of it. Okw also does not have a fantastic t0 mg wich they can park behind it from minute zero. No long rane nade to be launched from safety.
Cons and sandbags only became a problem because of the 7th man. Its not even an ai upgrade but is getting nerfed in damage output regardless.
30 Mar 2020, 07:25 AM
#123
avatar of Aradan

Posts: 903

Soviet engi are fine, as they are.
30 Mar 2020, 07:25 AM
#124
avatar of porkloin

Posts: 186



Honestly, I think even a basic automatch attempt with the CE strat could be illuminative, given the weaknesses I laid out. I'd be interested in a replay of even that.

You haven't told me why you think I'm wrong about CEs though, and I am curious to know, but if you feel so strongly about this topic that you would prefer to demonstrate their supposed capabilities in a replay than I can only wish you the best.


https://www.coh2.org/replay/104649/fourms-arguement-1

20 minute game vs a rank 600 something OST

I wasn't lucky enough to get any higher ranking players unfortunately. Went 9-2 for the night with no infantry other than CE and AT guns in a couple games.
30 Mar 2020, 09:17 AM
#125
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 7276 | Subs: 1



Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Show me some high level games where CE spam gets stomped if you think it's non-viable. I'd argue the reason you don't see it that often is because 'that's not how you play the game' rather than ineffectiveness.

I'm not familiar with OKW and thought SP were a tad more expensive. Do you think sturm pios are more cost effective than volksgren?

I didn't push CE vs conscripts.

A 5% difference in reinforce cost and 7.5% difference in pop is kinda splitting hairs when CE have a 10% increase in RA.

I compared CE to conscripts because they're in the same army. There's a wide variation in mainlines, but they're generally agreed to be balanced against each other. If CE are on par with conscripts it follows they'll be on par with the other mainlines despite more varied stats.

3 CE will beat two of any mainline infantry except for charging rifleman in open cover, and max range infantry sections if you want to go down this road, but your interest seems to be muddying the waters rather than taking a critical look at things.


Not to sound elitist, but anything works at lower ranks. This applies in any RTS. If CE spam was wrecking havoc in tournaments and in top100 ladder i would be concerned. At top200? Mildly amused. A pocket strat from a specific niche of players, interested (say for example mechanized HT play ala TwistedTootsy)

I've already told u why CE spam doesn't work. The current (and basically since alpha days) meta is heavy light vehicle play. Light vehicles have always been a key aspect on 1v1 and CE are not a unit which can counter them effectively. Which is why you will see that right now, OKW is more effective than OH on 1v1 because they can deploy an effective light tank to deal with AI (P2) and a counter to them (Puma).
Even if you play against OH, they will use a combination of either PG/222/FHT to deal with those.

You might be right and rose the ladder to top 100 and change the soviet meta. I would put my bet that CE and CE spam strats are not an issue at all.
30 Mar 2020, 09:44 AM
#126
avatar of porkloin

Posts: 186



Not to sound elitist, but anything works at lower ranks. This applies in any RTS. If CE spam was wrecking havoc in tournaments and in top100 ladder i would be concerned. At top200? Mildly amused. A pocket strat from a specific niche of players, interested (say for example mechanized HT play ala TwistedTootsy)

I've already told u why CE spam doesn't work. The current (and basically since alpha days) meta is heavy light vehicle play. Light vehicles have always been a key aspect on 1v1 and CE are not a unit which can counter them effectively. Which is why you will see that right now, OKW is more effective than OH on 1v1 because they can deploy an effective light tank to deal with AI (P2) and a counter to them (Puma).
Even if you play against OH, they will use a combination of either PG/222/FHT to deal with those.

You might be right and rose the ladder to top 100 and change the soviet meta. I would put my bet that CE and CE spam strats are not an issue at all.


CE spam doesn't work because LV play? Which LV do the soviets have again?

You're just deflecting. 1v1 me if you don't think I'm a high enough rank to have an opinion. Surely you're top 100 right?
30 Mar 2020, 10:04 AM
#127
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15610 | Subs: 7



CE spam doesn't work because LV play? Which LV do the soviets have again?

You're just deflecting. 1v1 me if you don't think I'm a high enough rank to have an opinion. Surely you're top 100 right?

What are your CEs gonna do against 251? 222? Luchs? flak 251?

Also, you are perfectly entitled to your opinion.
Regardless how wrong one it is.
30 Mar 2020, 10:08 AM
#128
avatar of porkloin

Posts: 186

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Mar 2020, 10:04 AMKatitof

What are your CEs gonna do against 251? 222? Luchs? flak 251?

Also, you are perfectly entitled to your opinion.
Regardless how wrong one it is.

Cap 3/4 the map and drop a 9 minute t-70 with mines all over.
30 Mar 2020, 10:15 AM
#129
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 2863



CE spam doesn't work because LV play? Which LV do the soviets have again?

You're just deflecting. 1v1 me if you don't think I'm a high enough rank to have an opinion. Surely you're top 100 right?


I’m 72 and you’re dreaming if you think CE spam is anything but a meme. Rank 600 is nonexistent tier, people don’t know what they’re doing there and you can blob your way to victory. This strat only works in higher tier if you’re better than your opponent. For instance if Luvnest goes CE spam vs me then he’ll win because he’s light years ahead as a player, but if he tries that vs Noggano he’ll absolutely lose. It’s a bad strat since you’re relying on Infantry that’s 4man, no merge, no combat veterancy and no snare to protect your vehicles from a Puma.
30 Mar 2020, 10:19 AM
#130
avatar of porkloin

Posts: 186



I’m 72 and you’re dreaming if you think CE spam is anything but a meme. Rank 600 is nonexistent tier, people don’t know what they’re doing there and you can blob your way to victory. This strat only works in higher tier if you’re better than your opponent. For instance if Luvnest goes CE spam vs me then he’ll win because he’s light years ahead as a player, but if he tries that vs Noggano he’ll absolutely lose. It’s a bad strat since you’re relying on Infantry that’s 4man, no merge, no combat veterancy and no snare to protect your vehicles from a Puma.


My profile's up there. Hit me up. I'm sorry I don't have the time for 20-30 games to get to a decent mmr with a faction I'm not working on just so I can win fourms arguments with cowards.
30 Mar 2020, 10:38 AM
#131
avatar of Mazianni

Posts: 766



https://www.coh2.org/replay/104649/fourms-arguement-1

20 minute game vs a rank 600 something OST

I wasn't lucky enough to get any higher ranking players unfortunately. Went 9-2 for the night with no infantry other than CE and AT guns in a couple games.


I will say this: you played very well, and have definitely convinvinced me of CE viability as a combat unit - for at least the first 5 minutes.

Ostheer player had a bad build of his own from the start (MG into Mortar) and got spooked early on by your mining and early wipe of mined grenadier squad. But even then he had regained map control until the T70s arrived - which I think your playback makes a better case for nerfing than CEs.

Still, this absolutely proves CEs are at least useable as infantry in early game, and talented Soviet player can probably stall into T-70s with them as you did with your early lead.

What would you propose though? Im not sure if anyone wants the slot machine rifles back, and these guys still need to do some damage. I'm still not sure this is something that really requires nerf. If Ostheer player had gone Ostruppen, or even started with Grenadier instead of a Mortar, I think game would have gone very differently, and I dont think the strat would have worked at all vs OKW.
30 Mar 2020, 10:39 AM
#132
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8701 | Subs: 1

Regardless of how viable a CE is the majority of people who voted agree that CE are fine.

Further more giving them pio profile weapons would actually be a nerf.
30 Mar 2020, 10:49 AM
#133
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 1156

Another option is to make pios cost 180.
30 Mar 2020, 10:57 AM
#134
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 2863

For anyone who wants to hear the counterargument: https://easyupload.io/taneh0
30 Mar 2020, 11:01 AM
#135
avatar of porkloin

Posts: 186

Here's me, rank 600 something soviet losing to *!*!Rank 87 *!*! stormjaeger.
https://www.coh2.org/replay/104654/fourms-arguement-2

Apparently blobs counter CE spam, but not conscripts, and so we don't need a rematch where I'm building mgs.
30 Mar 2020, 11:02 AM
#136
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 2863

Here's me, rank 600 something soviet losing to *!*!Rank 87 *!*! stormjaeger. Apparently blobs counter CE spam, but not conscripts, and so we don't need a rematch where I'm building mgs.


Yeah I’m the bully. Not like you’re the one who asked for a fight or anything...

And the maxim is trash, you’re delusional if you think it would have saved you.
30 Mar 2020, 11:02 AM
#137
avatar of porkloin

Posts: 186



Yeah I’m the bully. Not like you’re the one who asked for a fight or anything...

And the maxim is trash, you’re delusional if you think it would have saved you.


Well lets go.
30 Mar 2020, 11:08 AM
#138
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 1156

Thumbs up for the really masculine way to settle differences - on the battlefield! Do you throw gloves beforehand?
30 Mar 2020, 11:09 AM
#139
avatar of JibberJabberJobber

Posts: 1363 | Subs: 3

Agreed with lowering the veterancy requirements on Pioneers and Engineers to be in line with Rear Echelons and giving them a reduced received accuracy bonus at vet 3.
30 Mar 2020, 11:10 AM
#140
avatar of porkloin

Posts: 186

Thumbs up for the really masculine way to settle differences - on the battlefield! Do you throw gloves beforehand?


Nah. To prove his point that CE aren't effective after losing 90% of the map is to game the matchup by retreat path blobbing around his minesweeper.
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