Login

russian armor

Tiger main gun nerf too much? (Winter patch)

PAGES (9)down
27 Mar 2020, 16:22 PM
#141
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8285 | Subs: 1


Yea but the cheaper stug can't duke it out with allied TDs. Granted, we're not here to argue about TDs, I just thought it was impressive how quickly the JP can eat through that much health.


So actually you are paying as much as those other TDs so you can counter them and that some how is OP according to some other user.

JP is not really much better the SU-85 vs lower armored vehicles (unless it achieves high vet) and it is worse vs heavily armored vehicles
27 Mar 2020, 16:48 PM
#142
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3959 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Mar 2020, 16:22 PMVipper


So actually you are paying as much as those other TDs so you can counter them and that some how is OP according to some other user.

JP is not really much better the SU-85 vs lower armored vehicles (unless it achieves high vet) and it is worse vs heavily armored vehicles

Were in agreement though that the su85 is over tuned so I wouldn't use it as a baseline, but even then, the jp4 does put more points in durability which will lower its output
27 Mar 2020, 18:18 PM
#143
avatar of Domine

Posts: 497

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Mar 2020, 09:53 AMVipper

That is is imply not true
A JP firing at Churchill at max range will needs on average 63.5 sec to kill it.

A FF firing at a Tiger at max range will needs on average 58.7 sec to kill it without even using Tulips.

Note here that the price ratio greatly favors the FF.

(calculation are made using DPS by adjusting damage and taking into account accuracy and penetration)


Notice also how he conveniently left out that the Tiger is a doctrinal fuel heavy and the Churchill is a much much cheaper stock tank(and not even a heavy at that) :snfPeter:
28 Mar 2020, 15:17 PM
#144
avatar of SuperHansFan

Posts: 724

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Mar 2020, 18:18 PMDomine


Notice also how he conveniently left out that the Tiger is a doctrinal fuel heavy and the Churchill is a much much cheaper stock tank(and not even a heavy at that) :snfPeter:


According to vippers own definition in old threads calling for churchill nerfs the Churchill is a "heavy" and so is the tiger.

28 Mar 2020, 15:22 PM
#145
avatar of SuperHansFan

Posts: 724

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Mar 2020, 09:53 AMVipper

That is is imply not true
A JP firing at Churchill at max range will needs on average 63.5 sec to kill it.

A FF firing at a Tiger at max range will needs on average 58.7 sec to kill it without even using Tulips.

Note here that the price ratio greatly favors the FF.

(calculation are made using DPS by adjusting damage and taking into account accuracy and penetration)


I did three tests with pershing vs JP at 50, 55 and 60 range. and tiger vs FF, JP came out on top every time.

JP vs Churchill died first 2/3 times, I know these are token tests but if the JP couldn't fight with heavies then it wouldn't even be competeing with FF here. Of course SU-85 is different when it has no defensive vet like the JP and loses in a 1vs1 vs JP.

28 Mar 2020, 15:22 PM
#146
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15216 | Subs: 7



According to vippers own definition in old threads calling for churchill nerfs the Churchill is a "heavy" and so is the tiger.


It also has much more health then tiger, so we can easily compare them despite lower armor, it averages out to be the same survivability, except against one you need high pen and against the other, lots of shells in short time.
28 Mar 2020, 15:24 PM
#147
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8285 | Subs: 1



According to vippers own definition in old threads calling for churchill nerfs the Churchill is a "heavy" and so is the tiger.


If you want to use the term I use pls you learn them better:
Tiger is Super heavy tank.
28 Mar 2020, 15:34 PM
#151
avatar of SuperHansFan

Posts: 724

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Mar 2020, 09:53 AMVipper

That is is imply not true
A JP firing at Churchill at max range will needs on average 63.5 sec to kill it.

A FF firing at a Tiger at max range will needs on average 58.7 sec to kill it without even using Tulips.

Note here that the price ratio greatly favors the FF.

(calculation are made using DPS by adjusting damage and taking into account accuracy and penetration)


You always mention tulips in these tests as if they're a garenteed addition to DPS, but they're not as it's a skill shot.

I could also mention JP camo and even HEAT rounds that turn it into argubaly the best cost effective TD against all armor in the game. But I don't because they're not a sure thing in every engagement lile core DPS stats.

Unfortunetly for you and imperial dane actually the JP is pretty darn good, it's just so many OKW players get a horn for panthers, command tigers or KT. So JP gets sidelinded when one parked at the back can more than carry its weight against heavies. (especially vs jacksons too which it handily beats 1vs1)

And all this for 14 popcap
28 Mar 2020, 15:52 PM
#152
avatar of SuperHansFan

Posts: 724

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Mar 2020, 15:31 PMVipper

Well do not blame me for your low IQ.

And just to be clear it is Relic that classifies Tiger as Super heavy tank and not me.



keep on trying.


Lets agree with your terms here, for the sake of keeping discussion on the units in question.

So what about with upcoming patch post-armor nerf IS-2 vs JP and FF vs KT?

Both super heavies yes? Or do you want to call IS-2 super duper heavy in the event JP can compete here at a similar level to FF can with KT.
28 Mar 2020, 16:42 PM
#153
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8285 | Subs: 1



Lets agree with your terms here, for the sake of keeping discussion on the units in question.

So what about with upcoming patch post-armor nerf IS-2 vs JP and FF vs KT?

Both super heavies yes? Or do you want to call IS-2 super duper heavy in the event JP can compete here at a similar level to FF can with KT.

I am not sure what your point here is.
JP has the same penetration values and damage with Stug.

FF trade ROF for higher penetration value and higher damage.

That give FF better chance to penetrate and more damage to heavily armored targets while JP better at dealing with low armored target where ROF is better.
28 Mar 2020, 16:55 PM
#154
avatar of Domine

Posts: 497



According to vippers own definition in old threads calling for churchill nerfs the Churchill is a "heavy" and so is the tiger.



Cool story bro, if it were a heavy it would be limited to 1 and it would exclude all other heavies from being called in. The Command Panther is classified as a heavy, for example, by relic. The KV 1 and Churchill is not, and if those were suddenly classified heavies, they would be getting nerfs, and not buffs.
28 Mar 2020, 17:00 PM
#155
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 2636

So what about with upcoming patch post-armor nerf IS-2 vs JP and FF vs KT?


KT is the only unit in the game that moves like a snail and takes a celestial orbit around the earth to rotate its retarded gun around. Comparing it to the relatively mobile IS2 is not fair.

Also lmao at the JP4 HEAT rounds, shite commander, big cost and you counter them by backing off. It's not like the JP4 can chase effectively.
28 Mar 2020, 18:10 PM
#156
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 2412 | Subs: 1


Both super heavies yes? Or do you want to call IS-2 super duper heavy in the event JP can compete here at a similar level to FF can with KT.


Sorry what? Tulips can mean the end of a KT, at least in team games

If your brit partner gets the stun off on it you can just park a medium right behind it. They better have lots of AT behind their KT or else its toast

There's a reason people barely build the KT anymore. Actually there's a lot of reasons, and they all have to do with it sucking
28 Mar 2020, 20:10 PM
#157
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 7104 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Mar 2020, 16:55 PMDomine


Cool story bro, if it were a heavy it would be limited to 1 and it would exclude all other heavies from being called in. The Command Panther is classified as a heavy, for example, by relic. The KV 1 and Churchill is not, and if those were suddenly classified heavies, they would be getting nerfs, and not buffs.


Been a heavy doesn't mean it would put a limit to the amount of units you can build. The Cmd PV is limited to one due to been a Cmd unit.

Weight classification only matters in order to put certain units in different categories although their performance may vary.

It also doesn't matters what Relic calls it IMO (what's consistency), as like with language, if 90% of the people refer to something in a certain way, it's better for understanding to use the more common term.

Ex:
(This was written by someone no longer working on Relic)
Super Heavy Call in Vehicles (Tiger, Tiger Ace, Elefant, IS2, ISU, Jadgtiger, Sturmtiger, KV2)
Limited to having only 1 on the field


(This is by Kyle)
Wreck values normalized:

Ultra Lights 10/5
Lights 15/10
Mediums 20/25
Advanced Mediums 35/30
Heavies 50/40
Super Heavies 60/45



Panthers (command PV included), T3485, KV1, are advance premiums.
Tiger (TA included), KV8, KV2, Avre, Crocodile and Churchill are classified as heavy
KT is a super heavy.
MMX
30 Mar 2020, 06:51 AM
#158
avatar of MMX

Posts: 220

In order to get back to the main topic and also to weigh in to the discussion with more numbers:

While I haven't been able to generate any statistically meaningful in-game data yet (obviously), I've run some theoretical simulations to estimate how the incoming changes to the AOE profiles impact the anti infantry performance of the affected heavy tanks (details on the methodology can be found here).

The comparison is based on the number of shots (S2K) and required time (T2K) to kill a full-health, 6-man squad in either "wide", "stacked" or "clumped" formation (Fig 1) at ranges 5, 20 and 40 m.


Fig 1: Formations used in the simulation, numbers below each image indicate average (AV), minimum (Min) and maximum (Max) distance between entities

The resulting average numbers for S2K (Fig 2) and T2K (Fig 3) over 5,000 iterations for the live and WBP-versions of the Tiger, IS-2 and Pershing, as well as the King Tiger and KV-2 for reference can be seen below.


Fig 2: Shots required to kill a full-health, 6-man squad.


Fig 2: Time required to kill a full-health, 6-man squad.

Expectedly, the S2K or T2K values show significant dependence on the squad spacing and range. However, and more important for the actual discussion, you can clearly see that the effect of the AOE changes on the overall anti-inf performance of the Tiger (as well as IS-2 and M26) is rather limited, and the tanks will be nowhere near as "neutered" by these changes as people suggest.
The actual magnitude (see Table 1) is in the range of only 5-10%, and both Pershing and IS-2 seem to be impacted more by the WBP than the Tiger, in particular for more "clumped-up" formations.





ClumpedStackedWide
Tiger5.36.95.2
IS-27.04.74.9
Pershing11.110.48.1

Table 1: Percentage of T2K increase for WBP-versions of Tiger, IS-2 and Pershing depending on squad formation

TLDR: Tiger will still be going strong against infantry in the upcoming patch
30 Mar 2020, 21:23 PM
#159
avatar of SaintPauli

Posts: 13

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Mar 2020, 06:51 AMMMX
The comparison is based on the number of shots (S2K) and required time (T2K) to kill a full-health, 6-man squad in either "wide", "stacked" or "clumped" formation (Fig 1) at ranges 5, 20 and 40 m.

Thx for crunching the numbers. Could you also do the calculations for the time to kill a 4 man squad for the allied tanks?
MMX
31 Mar 2020, 13:40 PM
#160
avatar of MMX

Posts: 220


Thx for crunching the numbers. Could you also do the calculations for the time to kill a 4 man squad for the allied tanks?


Though I haven't had the time to do it for all allied tanks yet, this comparison for the IS-2 should outline the general trend at least...


Fig 1: Comparison of number of shots required to kill a full-health 6 or 4-man squad for different distances and squad formations

As you can see, while the required number of shots to kill the 4-man squad is noticeably smaller - as one would naturally expect - the actual difference is less than 10% in most cases. This should not be too surprising, since entities in a squad often receive non-lethal damage from near-misses or direct hits to adjacent models.
Of course a lot comes down to squad formations and spacing between models, which is why it can be quite difficult to compare results between 4 and 6-men formations. As a result, the difference between 4 and 6-man squad are relatively small for the wide formation, where removing the entities encircled in red (Fig 2) did not change the average spacing of the squad members too much. In case of the stacked formation, the resulting 4-man squad is much more clumped than the 6-man analog and the difference in the S2K value is much greater (~20-25%).


Fig 1: 4-man squad formations generated by removing entities encircled in red
PAGES (9)down
1 user is browsing this thread: 1 guest
UTT2 Main Event

Ladders Top 10

  • #
    Steam Alias
    W
    L
    %
    Streak
Data provided by Relic Relic Entertainment

Replay highlight

VS
  • Ostheer flag T.R. 6 squads, 4 maxim 2 engies
  • U.S. Forces flag °NOSMarkov.-
uploaded by KahootKing

Board Info

139 users are online: 139 guests
128 posts in the last 24h
1032 posts in the last week
4722 posts in the last month
Registered members: 22586
Welcome our newest member, glass580ei
Most online: 1221 users on 25 Feb 2020, 12:03 PM