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Tiger main gun nerf too much? (Winter patch)

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26 Mar 2020, 14:57 PM
#121
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 2430 | Subs: 5

there was a poll where half the people didn’t even want performance nerfs, just CP nerfs

And the other half did want performance or cost nerfs. The CP increase will help for 3v3s and 4v4s and maybe a bit for 2v2s, but this increase alone will do absolutely nothing for the heavy meta in 1v1 because the average time for a heavy as the first tank in 1v1s is 14,9 CP on average. Even in 2v2s the Tiger as the first tank came at 12,5 CPs on average.

Since cost increases are awkward (there's basically no room there between what heavies cost now and what superheavies cost) and because Relic doesn't want heavies side-tech (bar as a last resort), it was deemed necessary to tone down performance a bit too. The Tiger got some of its most oppressive stuff (scatter vet, tank commander arty) replaced with other goodies (turret rotation vet, Command Tiger ability buff). Only near AOE was changed for all the heavies which should merely result in fewer OHK shots while still retaining good AI performance overal.


10/10 I don’t know why the bother with the previews when they never test.

Well at least now heavies will be consistent.....ly bad

Do you actually have any test results indicating that they will be bad or are you just being a hypocrite? Because I've actually tested the new AOE (specifically for the Tiger) in more realistic scenarios than Tightrope's one-off test (more targets to increase the validity of the sample size, more clumped up targets because that's what happens most in a real match and letting the Tiger use all of its MGs) and based on those, the Tiger still seems to have excellent AI. I don't know what happened in Tightrope's test (really bad RNG rolls I guess), but in my tests the Tiger does not overshoot nearly as much and consistently kills squads in about 3-4 shots. I'll upload a video once YouTube is done being slow.

Furthermore one of the Tiger's main traits is that it's the best AT heavy because of its range and DPM advantage, which is only going to become even more significant after the IS-2 gets its armor reduced a bit and with the new vet 2 turret rotation speed bonus.


And ultimately I'd like to emphasize once more that balancing complicated issues like these is always a work in progress and there's no way we can get everything right at the first try. Especially since there has been very little feedback based on actual test games with the preview mod. As always, we're going to have to launch the patch with some changes based on some guess work and see how it turns out over the thousands of live games. And as always we'll immediately start work on follow-up patches to fix whatever turns out to need fixing.
26 Mar 2020, 16:22 PM
#122
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 2815

And the other half did want performance or cost nerfs. The CP increase will help for 3v3s and 4v4s and maybe a bit for 2v2s, but this increase alone will do absolutely nothing for the heavy meta in 1v1 because the average time for a heavy as the first tank in 1v1s is 14,9 CP on average. Even in 2v2s the Tiger as the first tank came at 12,5 CPs on average.


Hence why I voted for a performance decrease and a cost increase to match the performance. Nobody, literally nobody not figuratively, voted to make the Tiger absolutely useless. Now I'm not saying that was the intention and I agree you don't always get it right, but it's been 2 weeks since the Tiger nerfs in the preview hit and it appears we're going into the live patch with these changes despite overwhelming feedback that the nerfs were excessive. In case the patch scales back some of the nerfs, then by all means I'll be wrong. If not, you're all gonna be targeted by the community for ignoring feedback and doing whatever you want.




Do you actually have any test results indicating that they will be bad or are you just being a hypocrite?


Do you? Tightrope is a member of the balance team and it's hilarious and sad to see how surprised he was when he witnessed the performance of the new Tiger. For the record I also tested the new Tiger the day the nerfs hit and I posted feedback on how neutered it is, so this isn't me playing the prophet after the fact.

What's the balance team's process? Shouldn't there be different versions tested and examined by everyone? If you're debating for instance 5%, 10%, 15% and 20% AoE nerfs for the Tiger, shouldn't there be 4 different videos with the performance of the Tiger in each so that everyone can have an opinion? If you're all arbitrarily just deciding on the numbers without testing and relying on the community, then no amount of feedback will save you from bad decisions, but again I don't know what happens behind closed doors so it's all speculation, mostly fueled again by Tightrope's surprise when he tested the Tigers against the IS2 and the Pershing. As a member of the balance team he should have been aware of all details and performances before making that video.

I don't know, you tell us. I'm just making assumptions, you're the only member of the team who talks to the community.



jump backJump back to quoted post26 Mar 2020, 14:09 PMKatitof
If we pretend Panthers don't exist, then yeah, you're right.


Panther without HEAT can zone out a heavy but not kill it due to its low rate of fire. KV2 is protected by double 6man zis and lots of cons squads, so you're not chasing it anytime soon. You don't get to say what happens when you switch sides since only the KV2 from all standard 1v1 heavies isn't having its AoE adjusted.
26 Mar 2020, 16:29 PM
#123
avatar of cochosgo

Posts: 298

Guys guys, take into account the live Tiger "One hit kill" radius of its AoE is bugged and paired with its long range accuracy are the reason of why its overperforming so much compared to other heavies. The current Tiger performance its not the intended way for it to perform even by last patch standards
26 Mar 2020, 16:45 PM
#124
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15492 | Subs: 7


Panther without HEAT can zone out a heavy but not kill it due to its low rate of fire. KV2 is protected by double 6man zis and lots of cons squads, so you're not chasing it anytime soon. You don't get to say what happens when you switch sides since only the KV2 from all standard 1v1 heavies isn't having its AoE adjusted.

I love this "I only have 1 unit, but opponent always has perfect combination of multiple units to protect his more expensive unit and hardcounter my single unit" type of arguments.

Also, Panthers rof is in line with any other tank destroyer in game, its quite a long time since its like that.
26 Mar 2020, 16:47 PM
#125
avatar of Domine

Posts: 497

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Mar 2020, 16:45 PMKatitof

I love this "I only have 1 unit, but opponent always has perfect combination of multiple units to protect his more expensive unit and hardcounter my single unit" type of arguments.

Also, Panthers rof is in line with any other tank destroyer in game, its quite a long time since its like that.


It is more expensive to get 1 Panther than to get 1 KV 2 and 2 ZiS.
26 Mar 2020, 16:54 PM
#126
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15492 | Subs: 7

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Mar 2020, 16:47 PMDomine


It is more expensive to get 1 Panther than to get 1 KV 2 and 2 ZiS.

You do realize that KV-2 is tech bound, just like any other heavy?
Also, OKW begs to differ here.
26 Mar 2020, 16:56 PM
#127
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 2430 | Subs: 5

Do you?

Yes. I literally told you in that post that I've done multiple tests. Just launch a custom game with cheatmods, run around with the Tiger shooting at squads in various conditions and you'll see that the results are significantly better than that one Tightrope video.


it appears we're going into the live patch with these changes despite overwhelming feedback that the nerfs were excessive

What overwhelming feedback? I've seen barely a handful of posts about it, mostly from the same persons. The one or two posts that actually came up with numbers and results concluded that the AOE changes were minimal and that the Tiger's AOE reduction was mostly in line with that of the IS-2. Even the poll of this very thread has a majority of the voters agreeing with all the current changes.

I've only seen a bit more discussion about the removal of the Panzer Commander, but that's something that can easily be reverted if the new live performance proves that it can/needs to come back.


Tightrope is a member of the balance team and it's hilarious and sad to see how surprised he was when he witnessed the performance of the new Tiger

Tightrope is on the balance team but due to his different time zone he usually can not participate in the majority of discussions and work which is why he isn't always fully up to date with all the changes and their results. Also I'd like to emphasize again that his test results are flawed because of very low sample size and what seems to be bad RNG rolls. Basing your entire opinion on the Tiger's adjusted performance on just this one video of the unit engaging a handful of squads doesn't make sense.


What's the balance team's process? Shouldn't there be different versions tested and examined by everyone?

We're not a professional team. We're all doing this in our free time, across vastly different time zones. Even merely discussing changes takes up most of the time, we can't rigorously test everything ourselves. Which is why some of the more vague changes like AOE are mostly based on our best guess work, and why we put out the test previews so players can test these changes in a realistic environment. However since feedback on that is incredibly minimal, we're going to have to use the live tests to see any real results.
26 Mar 2020, 17:06 PM
#128
avatar of JibberJabberJobber

Posts: 1362 | Subs: 3

Panther was made in 1/40 Ostheer matches and 9/67 OKW matches in WCS. Schwerer was made in 75% of matches and in 73% of matches either T3 or T4 was made for Ostheer. Panther is obviously not a very popular choice in 1v1, even if short matches were excluded.

Maybe the IS2 armor nerf + Ostheer tech improvement + Tiger AoE nerfs will change that, otherwise I think Panther could do with a small pen buff. It wouldn't change anything against mediums, but make it the defacto heavy counter for Axis, which Stug G and JP4 can't pull off. We'd have to see after the patch hits.
26 Mar 2020, 17:10 PM
#129
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15492 | Subs: 7

Panther was made in 1/40 Ostheer matches and 9/67 OKW matches in WCS. Schwerer was made in 75% of matches and in 73% of matches either T3 or T4 was made for Ostheer. Panther is obviously not a very popular choice in 1v1, even if short matches were excluded.

Maybe the IS2 armor nerf + Ostheer tech improvement + Tiger AoE nerfs will change that, otherwise I think Panther could do with a small pen buff. It wouldn't change anything against mediums, but make it the defacto heavy counter for Axis, which Stug G and JP4 can't pull off. We'd have to see after the patch hits.

Panther is fine, OP tigers were completely overshadowing it in 1v1.
27 Mar 2020, 01:33 AM
#130
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1150

Panthers with pen buff is no no. 50 range with super heavy durability and speed? We haven't consider spotting scopes and trench down yet!

It can just move a bit in, snipe and move out, and survive any counter attack and rendering all Allies call in useless with an almost certain max range pen!

Panthers are perfect spot now.

Did people also forgot Tigers will get a HUGE 30% turret speed? They will be oppressive late games bud! Fast to lock fast to reload. Stop testing simple rng against infantry at no vet, no mg upgrade.

51 voters like the new Tiger, healthy turnout, stop whining axis!
27 Mar 2020, 09:10 AM
#131
avatar of SuperHansFan

Posts: 820

Panther was made in 1/40 Ostheer matches and 9/67 OKW matches in WCS. Schwerer was made in 75% of matches and in 73% of matches either T3 or T4 was made for Ostheer. Panther is obviously not a very popular choice in 1v1, even if short matches were excluded.

Maybe the IS2 armor nerf + Ostheer tech improvement + Tiger AoE nerfs will change that, otherwise I think Panther could do with a small pen buff. It wouldn't change anything against mediums, but make it the defacto heavy counter for Axis, which Stug G and JP4 can't pull off. We'd have to see after the patch hits.


This is more to do with tiger meta, panthers have always been built in past tournaments.

Btw Jagdpanzer kills church or Pershing faster than a FF can kill a tiger.

Let's drop this "JP can't counter heavies" myth
27 Mar 2020, 09:53 AM
#132
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8606 | Subs: 1



This is more to do with tiger meta, panthers have always been built in past tournaments.

Btw Jagdpanzer kills church or Pershing faster than a FF can kill a tiger.

Let's drop this "JP can't counter heavies" myth

That is is imply not true
A JP firing at Churchill at max range will needs on average 63.5 sec to kill it.

A FF firing at a Tiger at max range will needs on average 58.7 sec to kill it without even using Tulips.

Note here that the price ratio greatly favors the FF.

(calculation are made using DPS by adjusting damage and taking into account accuracy and penetration)
27 Mar 2020, 09:56 AM
#133
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15492 | Subs: 7



Btw Jagdpanzer kills church or Pershing faster than a FF can kill a tiger.

Regular church or croc?
Because context would indicate croc as all other units are doctrinal, limited to 1, but regular church is still a thing, with a lot more health.
27 Mar 2020, 10:25 AM
#134
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 4116 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Mar 2020, 09:53 AMVipper

That is is imply not true
A JP firing at Churchill at max range will needs on average 63.5 sec to kill it.

A FF firing at a Tiger at max range will needs on average 58.7 sec to kill it without even using Tulips.

Note here that the price ratio greatly favors the FF.

(calculation are made using DPS by adjusting damage and taking into account accuracy and penetration)

That's actually pretty impressive for the jp4 given the health on the churchill.
27 Mar 2020, 10:30 AM
#135
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8606 | Subs: 1


That's actually pretty impressive for the jp4 given the health on the churchill.

Churchill has relatively low armor at 240 it is more of "heavy infatry support tank" than a "heavily armored tank". JP has around 71% chance to penetrate at max range.

The numbers are probably close to the much cheaper in cost and pop Stug.
27 Mar 2020, 10:32 AM
#136
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 2140 | Subs: 1

I do agree that the JP4 is often a bit underestimated. It has a 100% chance to penetrate every Soviet and USF stock unit. The only units it struggles against are the IS2 and ISU because of their armour. It does very well against Churchill because of fast ROF and relatively low armour. It also does well vs the Pershing. Against Comets it's harder to use because of the risk of being flanked.

Overall I find JP4 to be way better than FF for example. It's not as good as Jacksons and SU 85 but that's because these units are OP and not because JP4 is too bad. JP4 is actually the most fun TD to use because of camo, small target size, decent armour and 800HP at vet 2.
27 Mar 2020, 12:02 PM
#137
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 2842 | Subs: 1



Overall I find JP4 to be way better than FF for example. It's not as good as Jacksons and SU 85 but that's because these units are OP and not because JP4 is too bad. JP4 is actually the most fun TD to use because of camo, small target size, decent armour and 800HP at vet 2.


It is just OP in is own category but I guess defining it as fun to use is more common language.
27 Mar 2020, 12:04 PM
#138
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8606 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Mar 2020, 12:02 PMEsxile


It is just OP in is own category but I guess defining it as fun to use is more common language.

What category is that?
27 Mar 2020, 12:24 PM
#139
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 2815

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Mar 2020, 12:02 PMEsxile


It is just OP in is own category but I guess defining it as fun to use is more common language.


In a more common language you are clueless.
27 Mar 2020, 16:12 PM
#140
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 4116 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Mar 2020, 10:30 AMVipper

Churchill has relatively low armor at 240 it is more of "heavy infatry support tank" than a "heavily armored tank". JP has around 71% chance to penetrate at max range.

The numbers are probably close to the much cheaper in cost and pop Stug.

Yea but the cheaper stug can't duke it out with allied TDs. Granted, we're not here to argue about TDs, I just thought it was impressive how quickly the JP can eat through that much health.
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