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Tiger main gun nerf too much? (Winter patch)

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24 Mar 2020, 16:04 PM
#101
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Mar 2020, 15:30 PMVIGNASH


So are we going to test this new idea proposed by @Kurobane in this patch?

Cuz it looks promising way to deal with the heavies solution.


Reminder that mod team = modding team and it's not equal to moderation team on coh2.org.

So i don't know what to tell u :P
24 Mar 2020, 16:20 PM
#102
avatar of Sgt.BigHead

Posts: 65

SO with no proper aoe no need to wait for tiger anymore getting back for panther with better roam. Axis's wiping potential hammered again...
Dude this is tiger tank are u kidding me.
24 Mar 2020, 23:07 PM
#103
avatar of Kurobane

Posts: 644

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Mar 2020, 15:30 PMVIGNASH


So are we going to test this new idea proposed by @Kurobane in this patch?

Cuz it looks promising way to deal with the heavies solution.


If I had access to the files for the winter balance patch I would add it to the modding tools as it is a fairly simple change. Though recreating the entire winter patch from scratch is possible, I lack the time to do so due to work/time constraints.
25 Mar 2020, 00:27 AM
#104
avatar of VIGNASH

Posts: 187



Reminder that mod team = modding team and it's not equal to moderation team on coh2.org.

So i don't know what to tell u :P


my whole life has been a lie :hansGASM:
25 Mar 2020, 16:57 PM
#105
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 2430 | Subs: 1

After testing the new Tiger---> I think the AOE and veterancy nerfs are fine, but I don't know why the Tank Commander ability was removed on top of nerfing AOE + veterancy. The change is very very weird and counter-intuitive. It just makes no sense at all that you can upgrade the KT with it but not the Tiger. Meanwhile you can also upgrade the P4 with the tank commander? 90% of the player base will not get why this was done. This change needs to be deleted IMO. Tiger is fine after AOE+veterancy nerfs, no need for this awkward change.
25 Mar 2020, 17:00 PM
#106
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13375 | Subs: 1

After testing the new Tiger---> I think the AOE and veterancy nerfs are fine, but I don't know why the Tank Commander ability was removed on top of nerfing AOE + veterancy. The change is very very weird and counter-intuitive. It just makes no sense at all that you can upgrade the KT with it but not the Tiger. Meanwhile you can also upgrade the P4 with the tank commander? 90% of the player base will not get why this was done. This change needs to be deleted IMO. Tiger is fine after AOE+veterancy nerfs, no need for this awkward change.

I agree and I have point out the same.

If the the combo is too strong simply replace the ability with something else.
26 Mar 2020, 12:05 PM
#107
avatar of VIGNASH

Posts: 187

After testing the new Tiger---> I think the AOE and veterancy nerfs are fine, but I don't know why the Tank Commander ability was removed on top of nerfing AOE + veterancy. The change is very very weird and counter-intuitive. It just makes no sense at all that you can upgrade the KT with it but not the Tiger. Meanwhile you can also upgrade the P4 with the tank commander? 90% of the player base will not get why this was done. This change needs to be deleted IMO. Tiger is fine after AOE+veterancy nerfs, no need for this awkward change.


Thats what the mod team have always got wrong about nerfing a current meta unit.

They alway go nerf + more nerf = unit being useless.
26 Mar 2020, 12:14 PM
#108
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17634 | Subs: 9

After testing the new Tiger---> I think the AOE and veterancy nerfs are fine, but I don't know why the Tank Commander ability was removed on top of nerfing AOE + veterancy. The change is very very weird and counter-intuitive. It just makes no sense at all that you can upgrade the KT with it but not the Tiger. Meanwhile you can also upgrade the P4 with the tank commander? 90% of the player base will not get why this was done. This change needs to be deleted IMO. Tiger is fine after AOE+veterancy nerfs, no need for this awkward change.

We've had similar arguments when Pershing lost vehicle crew ability.
That turned out to be fine at the end.
It'll be fine for Tiger as well.
OKW one dominated meta so badly, the only situation when you would ever consider different vehicle was if you already had it on field.

It was never supposed to be this answer to all magical wunderwaffe it became.
26 Mar 2020, 12:50 PM
#109
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13375 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Mar 2020, 12:14 PMKatitof

We've had similar arguments when Pershing lost vehicle crew ability.
That turned out to be fine at the end.
It'll be fine for Tiger as well.
OKW one dominated meta so badly, the only situation when you would ever consider different vehicle was if you already had it on field.

It was never supposed to be this answer to all magical wunderwaffe it became.

Pershing never had a disembark crew ability.
26 Mar 2020, 12:56 PM
#110
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17634 | Subs: 9

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Mar 2020, 12:50 PMVipper

Pershing never had a disembark crew ability.


Irrelevant, it was faction trait that needed to go to make the unit work and not be insane.
Similar case here.
26 Mar 2020, 12:59 PM
#111
avatar of KoRneY

Posts: 643

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Mar 2020, 12:14 PMKatitof

We've had similar arguments when Pershing lost vehicle crew ability.
That turned out to be fine at the end.
It'll be fine for Tiger as well.
OKW one dominated meta so badly, the only situation when you would ever consider different vehicle was if you already had it on field.

It was never supposed to be this answer to all magical wunderwaffe it became.


Command tank that has the no commander upgrade. Let's get rid of the commisar model in that squad and nuke the leutnant for the Germans too for consistency.

The commander was an issue when the tiger was dropping models on at guns when they were trying to move. They'd drop the gun and boom. Since the main gun has been pretty nerfed, it's weird that the commander is still gone. Quad nerfing has never worked.
26 Mar 2020, 13:01 PM
#112
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17634 | Subs: 9

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Mar 2020, 12:59 PMKoRneY


Command tank that has the no commander upgrade. Let's get rid of the commisar model in that squad and nuke the leutnant for the Germans too for consistency.

How's that relevant? Is commissar OP, murderfucking every infantry squad around, while providing strong buffs? Is german officer?

The commander was an issue when the tiger was dropping models on at guns when they were trying to move. They'd drop the gun and boom. Since it's been pretty nerfed, it's weird that it's still gone. Quad nerfing has never worked.


You sure?
Con 7th model got already 4 nerfs, 3 consecutive ones in this very preview patch and I don't see anyone REEEE-ing about it.

When so many nerfs are needed to bring back the unit or ability in line, then that's what's needed to be done.
26 Mar 2020, 13:07 PM
#113
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13375 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Mar 2020, 12:56 PMKatitof


Irrelevant, it was faction trait that needed to go to make the unit work and not be insane.
Similar case here.


Completely relevant:

"We've had similar arguments when Pershing lost vehicle crew ability."

We did not have a similar argument BECAUSE Pershing did not lose what it never had. Pls silently accept what you wrote is false and move on pls.
------

Removing the commander upgrade from OKW Tiger is a band aid solution and the ability should simply be replaced by something else.

The commander ability is only available in PzIV/Panther/KT/Tiger and removing from the OKW TIger will make the upgrade hardly used in 1vs1 since one will not be able to afford (or make a good combo) a Tiger and one of the other 3 units.
26 Mar 2020, 13:19 PM
#114
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

After testing the new Tiger---> I think the AOE and veterancy nerfs are fine, but I don't know why the Tank Commander ability was removed on top of nerfing AOE + veterancy. The change is very very weird and counter-intuitive.


I definitely agree on it being counterintuitive.

Maybe it could have a preupgraded tank commander model on the top hatch, being a Command Tiger and all?
26 Mar 2020, 13:19 PM
#115
avatar of KoRneY

Posts: 643

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Mar 2020, 13:01 PMKatitof

How's that relevant? Is commissar OP, murderfucking every infantry squad around, while providing strong buffs? Is german officer?



You sure?
Con 7th model got already 4 nerfs, 3 consecutive ones in this very preview patch and I don't see anyone REEEE-ing about it.

When so many nerfs are needed to bring back the unit or ability in line, then that's what's needed to be done.


Officer squad with no officers? How else can I spell it out for you?

Command tank in a doctrine with panzer commander upgrade but can't upgrade? Seems arbitrary at best.

And yes, they received four nerfs. Over multiple patches. So it strikes me as something they were slowly adjusting, which is maybe something they should've tried with the tiger.

It doesn't make a terrible amount of sense when the KT still has it's aoe.

26 Mar 2020, 13:31 PM
#116
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Mar 2020, 13:19 PMKoRneY
It doesn't make a terrible amount of sense when the KT still has it's aoe.


The KT doesn't have speed.

They removed the tank commander because the artillery strike combined with the Tiger's speed, durability and AoE made it trivally easy to take out anti-tank guns.

I agree, it feels very arbitrary, but the alternative is a combo the balance team judged to be too strong.
26 Mar 2020, 13:45 PM
#117
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13375 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Mar 2020, 13:31 PMLago


The KT doesn't have speed.

They removed the tank commander because the artillery strike combined with the Tiger's speed, durability and AoE made it trivally easy to take out anti-tank guns.

I agree, it feels very arbitrary, but the alternative is a combo the balance team judged to be too strong.

I agree but they should have removed the commander ability itself and not the option since the commander ability will come borderline useless (very situational) for in that commander.
26 Mar 2020, 13:55 PM
#118
avatar of KoRneY

Posts: 643

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Mar 2020, 13:31 PMLago


The KT doesn't have speed.

They removed the tank commander because the artillery strike combined with the Tiger's speed, durability and AoE made it trivally easy to take out anti-tank guns.

I agree, it feels very arbitrary, but the alternative is a combo the balance team judged to be too strong.


That's true.

I usually call it down if I see a model holding the gun go down, so I was focused a little more on the aoe aspect.
26 Mar 2020, 14:04 PM
#119
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3

90% of the player base will not get why this was done.


That’s not even the funniest part. A few days before the mega nerfs to heavies there was a poll where half the people didn’t even want performance nerfs, just CP nerfs. This translated into quad mega nerfs on almost all heavies (gotta have the OP KV2 around next patch) which is something noone asked for.

Well at least now heavies will be consistent.....ly bad. Except for the KV2, it’ll be nuking everything in 1v1 and won’t be countered by anything except HEAT and KTs.

10/10 I don’t know why the bother with the previews when they never test.
26 Mar 2020, 14:09 PM
#120
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17634 | Subs: 9


Well at least now heavies will be consistent.....ly bad. Except for the KV2, it’ll be nuking everything in 1v1 and won’t be countered by anything except HEAT and KTs.

If we pretend Panthers don't exist, then yeah, you're right.
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