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russian armor

Zis Barrage

30 Oct 2019, 15:38 PM
#1
avatar of Blebfeesh

Posts: 56

When going T2 soviets, the closest thing you have to a grenade, arguably better in many cases, is the Zis gun/SU-76's barrage. Simular cost, and role with different pros and cons compared to grenades. All I want is a QOL improvement where if you cancel the barrage before it fires a shot, you aren't charged for it, like canceling a grenade. The cool down should remain if you cancel it. Only because I want to keep gameplay minimally changed. Obviously if other artillary pieces have this quirk they should be changed in a similar way as well, I just can't think of them off the top of my head.
30 Oct 2019, 16:26 PM
#2
avatar of Hon3ynuts

Posts: 809

I know Artillery pieces had a bug where you could fire a shot and not go on cooldown, which is why this feature is in place on the priest at least
30 Oct 2019, 16:36 PM
#3
avatar of Blebfeesh

Posts: 56

A very crude way to get around that bug, though I imagine if they could get rid of it, they would have. Though at the very least, the standard priest barrage doesn't cost munitions. Howitzers also have the aiming grace period that ,for the most part, would mitigate this issue.
30 Oct 2019, 20:40 PM
#4
avatar of IncendiaryRounds:)

Posts: 1040

Speaking of zis barrage, it's a bit too good. Pak TWP got nerfed for a reason. Prenerf TWP allowed u to basically secure a kill on any medium with double pak and a single TWP. Zis barrage is just as dangerous as prenerf TWP as it has lethal accuracy/scatter and can usually wipe a full health support weapon crew in 2 shells (only 1 shell needed vs wounded squads.) As well, zis barrage loads basically instantaneously while there is a significant delay for TWP meaning it's nearly impossible for counterplay for zis barrage.
30 Oct 2019, 20:50 PM
#5
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
Director of Moderation Badge

Posts: 3162 | Subs: 1

So OPs point of being able to cancel the zis barrage before it fires bring to mind the idea of the zis gun bug. A bug that applied when you would stop the barrage before it finished, and a lot of times made your AT gun immobile as well as undefeatable. I imagine this change could unintentionally bring more zis gun bugs into play. Obviously that is bad.

The barrage itself I think is very strong. I think the first shell has zero scatter(?) correct me on that if it doesn't, which makes it very reliable against soft targets, specifically weapon teams that AT guns shouldn't be countering in the first place imo. It is extremely unique, so I think it should stay, but I don't think it should have a guaranteed first hit (if it does) against soft targets.
30 Oct 2019, 22:42 PM
#6
avatar of Lago

Posts: 2658

The ZiS gun is a field artillery piece, which is why it has this artillery strike.

It's meant to double as a mortar for a cost.
31 Oct 2019, 00:49 AM
#7
avatar of IncendiaryRounds:)

Posts: 1040

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Oct 2019, 22:42 PMLago
The ZiS gun is a field artillery piece, which is why it has this artillery strike.

It's meant to double as a mortar for a cost.


It gets the same ability of a T4 unit namely the Brum though the shells aren't as powerful, the range and accuracy is phenomenal. I call it the "wipe MG for 30 munis" ability 5 minutes into the game. First shell guaranteed accuracy.
31 Oct 2019, 07:46 AM
#8
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 13674 | Subs: 7



It gets the same ability of a T4 unit namely the Brum though the shells aren't as powerful, the range and accuracy is phenomenal. I call it the "wipe MG for 30 munis" ability 5 minutes into the game. First shell guaranteed accuracy.

You can call it "rainbows and unicorns" and it still will be fine.
If it feels to good to you, then you have opponents creeping real close with ATGs before using it, exposing themselves to quick counter push.

It was nerfed long time ago and there is nothing wrong with it.
31 Oct 2019, 07:55 AM
#9
avatar of Blebfeesh

Posts: 56

So OPs point of being able to cancel the zis barrage before it fires bring to mind the idea of the zis gun bug. A bug that applied when you would stop the barrage before it finished, and a lot of times made your AT gun immobile as well as undefeatable. I imagine this change could unintentionally bring more zis gun bugs into play. Obviously that is bad.

The barrage itself I think is very strong. I think the first shell has zero scatter(?) correct me on that if it doesn't, which makes it very reliable against soft targets, specifically weapon teams that AT guns shouldn't be countering in the first place imo. It is extremely unique, so I think it should stay, but I don't think it should have a guaranteed first hit (if it does) against soft targets.

I was unfamiliar with that bug, if changing the barrage is more trouble than it is worth, I suppose well enough will do. Also, I never did claim the barrage was bad, its one of the major reasons why I enjoy going T2 soviets over T1.
31 Oct 2019, 08:11 AM
#10
avatar of Blebfeesh

Posts: 56

Speaking of zis barrage, it's a bit too good. Pak TWP got nerfed for a reason. Prenerf TWP allowed u to basically secure a kill on any medium with double pak and a single TWP. Zis barrage is just as dangerous as prenerf TWP as it has lethal accuracy/scatter and can usually wipe a full health support weapon crew in 2 shells (only 1 shell needed vs wounded squads.) As well, zis barrage loads basically instantaneously while there is a significant delay for TWP meaning it's nearly impossible for counterplay for zis barrage.

if you let a friggin AT gun move close enough to your MG so that the scatter is low enough to reliably two shot it, that says more about you than the at gun. The Pak does a better job of AT than the Zis, the barrage is the trade off soviets get in this case. I'm sure the Wehrmacht will be fine with their better mg and mortar to pick up the slack of their At gun.
31 Oct 2019, 09:48 AM
#11
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6241 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post31 Oct 2019, 07:46 AMKatitof

You can call it "rainbows and unicorns" and it still will be fine.
If it feels to good to you, then you have opponents creeping real close with ATGs before using it, exposing themselves to quick counter push.

It was nerfed long time ago and there is nothing wrong with it.

No matter what happened a "long time ago" "in a galaxy far far way" the barrage was patched recently:


HE Barrage AOE damage from 1/0.15/0.125 to 1/0.375/0.125
HE Barrage AOE distance from 1.5/3/4.5 to 0/3/5

31 Oct 2019, 09:50 AM
#12
avatar of joseph_fagslaya_diao

Posts: 17

How about they remove this op ability
31 Oct 2019, 11:23 AM
#13
avatar of general_gawain

Posts: 334

jump backJump back to quoted post31 Oct 2019, 09:48 AMVipper

No matter what happened a "long time ago" "in a galaxy far far way" the barrage was patched recently:


HE Barrage AOE damage from 1/0.15/0.125 to 1/0.375/0.125
HE Barrage AOE distance from 1.5/3/4.5 to 0/3/5



Yeah, but its not a buff, more like a nerf. On the upside it deals some more consistent damage at mid AOE distance now, but infantry instant kill radius was set from 1.5 to 0. So it doesn't wipes on first hits anymore. That was the strongest thing about the barrage. Especially when predicting movement of infantry units, you could completely shut down an infantry assault at the Zis. This was really strong.
31 Oct 2019, 12:07 PM
#14
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6241 | Subs: 1



Yeah, but its not a buff, more like a nerf. On the upside it deals some more consistent damage at mid AOE distance now, but infantry instant kill radius was set from 1.5 to 0. So it doesn't wipes on first hits anymore. That was the strongest thing about the barrage. Especially when predicting movement of infantry units, you could completely shut down an infantry assault at the Zis. This was really strong.

It was brought in line with mortars, since it made little sense for a ATG to have a bigger kill radius than a mortar.

I was not a buff nor a nerf, the change reduced RNG.

I simply point out tha a nerf that happened "long time ago" is irrelevant, the barrage was redesigned very recently.
31 Oct 2019, 12:35 PM
#15
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 6241 | Subs: 1

"You are not getting nerf, you are just been brought back in line with others..."

:rolleyes:

@OP: unfortunately, anything involving the Zis gun is a pain in the ass. The unit has been riddle with bugs and it seems like they just barely found a way to keep it functional with some "hack" type of solution. The ones which look like this:

#Although this code looks like it does nothing, please don't touch it. It breaks the whole game. Also don't touch this text neither. It makes Pripyat go back into map rotation somehow."
31 Oct 2019, 12:49 PM
#16
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6241 | Subs: 1

"You are not getting nerf, you are just been brought back in line with others..."
:rolleyes:

You will have to debate that with who ever writes the patch notes, where there is nothing about a nerf:

"ZiS-3 and SU-76 76mm HE Barrage

The barrage ability on the ZiS-3 and SU-76 has been changed to have reduced raw killing power and deal more reliable health damage instead."

And x111% far AOE, x250% mid damage is hardly a nerf.

In the case of the SU-76 I would actually call it a buff since with x125% damage buff with vet it will can one shoot infatry and do allot more "health" damage.

Once more the change aim at reducing RNG frustration for both sides.

I guess people have the right to believe the Brumbar/IS-2/Pershing/Tiger...that go a similar change where also nerfed...
31 Oct 2019, 13:03 PM
#17
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 3902

Spaghetti code
31 Oct 2019, 17:39 PM
#18
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 6241 | Subs: 1

Don't go offtopic as you usually are. Su76 and other units have nothing to do with this thread.

jump backJump back to quoted post31 Oct 2019, 12:49 PMVipper
I guess people have the right to believe the Brumbar/IS-2/Pershing/Tiger...that go a similar change where also nerfed...


I don't have problems to call things for what they are. All other units you mentioned, have other stats such as scatter to accompany those changes.
And yes, removing the capability to wipe is a nerf. All those units you mentioned there don't have a 0 value distance and their initial damage is not 80. The change is healthy, it doesn't mean it's not a nerf.

Also, if you were less prone to answer quickly and check how the damage distribution was done, you would notice the difference in damage spread.


Unless i math wrong, the graph should look like this. I assume if the far AoE distance is inferior to the total AoE, then dmg tend to go to 0, not to maintain it.

Zis


Brummbar


I'm sure the Mod team made is so as the total damage average across the area is practically the same, but the distribution is what changed.

So why the Brummbar was suddenly a "god unit" which required nerfs? Because while the average AoE damage remained the same, that's only when you account for damage superior to 80, which are irrelevant to infantry.
Lethal dmg before was from 0 to ~2.125 and it was changed to 0 to ~1.125.
The avg damage done from 80 and below was doubled. Previously it was doing 48dmg at 2.5 and linearly falling down to 0dmg at 6. Current one was made to do at similar dmg at 2.5 but falling to 32dmg at 6.


31 Oct 2019, 17:58 PM
#19
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6241 | Subs: 1

Don't go offtopic as you usually are. Su76 and other units have nothing to do with this thread.

Su-76 had the exact changes so it not actually off topic, what applies to zis barrage applies to SU-76 only the SU-76 is better...the main difference is that it does 100 damage at vet2 and gets more range.


I don't have problems to call things for what they are. All other units you mentioned, have other stats such as scatter to accompany those changes.
And yes, removing the capability to wipe is a nerf. All those units you mentioned there don't have a 0 value distance and their initial damage is not 80. The change is healthy, it doesn't mean it's not a nerf.
....

The changes aim at the same thing, less killing power more consistent damage, regardless of other changes that aim at same thing, the logic is the same.

If the weapon scatter bellow 0-2.5 it is nerf if weapon scatter from 2.5-6 its buff.

If you want to calling it nerf I have no problem with that but then all these units got nerfed..

And my original point still stands, the argument that "there is nothing wrong with it" because it was nerfed a "long time ago" "in a galaxy far far way" holds little water. Any obscure nerf that happen a long time ago is irrelevant since the ability was patched in September receiving 1 nerf and 2 buffs.
31 Oct 2019, 19:47 PM
#20
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 473

These are the actual damage profiles of ZiS prepatch (Zis1, blue; I was lazy so sorry); ZiS postpatch (Zis2, orange) and the Brummbär. The only thing that is not accounted for by my calculation model is if the max AoE differs from the far AoE distance point. In that case, everything that goes beyond the far distance point is neglected and 0, but units like that are quite rare from what I remember.

Graph resolution is 0,1875 m.


Data for Zis-pre / Zis-post / Brummbär
kill radius for 80 damage: 1,500 / 0,000 / 1,106
area under plot: 206,04 / 204,41 / 376,70
functional area under plot: 206,04 / 204,41 / 301,09

Note: "functional area" is the area of the plot that is also below the 80 HP mark which basically corrects for artifacts when calculating AI capability. Graph areas are arithmetic estimates and no perfect integrals.



Conclusion:
Prepatch ZiS and Postpatch ZiS had the same overall AI damage, but prepatch there was a high model wipe capability (even better than today's Brummbär). Now ZiS can't wipe a full health model anymore, while overall AI damage stays the same. I can't tell anymore how reliable the prepatch ZiS was at hitting targets, but if the scatter was not touched I'd say it's an overall nerf (just like every artillery unit and even abilities got changed towards more reliable, less bursty damage).

If anyone provides me the SU76 data I can insert them into the graph (although 4 units is the max to compare).
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