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russian armor

Zis Barrage

1 Nov 2019, 13:00 PM
#41
avatar of Raviloli

Posts: 62



and soviet conscripts should only have 3 rifles for a squad of 6 men


That's a false meme perpetualized by Hollywood movies that needs to die.
1 Nov 2019, 13:04 PM
#42
avatar of HansLanda

Posts: 9



That's a false meme perpetualized by Hollywood movies that needs to die.


actually i saw it in a documentary. think it was called "enemy on my lawn"
1 Nov 2019, 13:48 PM
#43
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 13775 | Subs: 7



this is blatant ally fanboyism. this is a rts GAME, has nthing to do with historical accuracy. the zisgun is the soviet ANTITANK gun, not a arty piece. there is no other AT gun in the game that has the ability to throw out nukes to counter inf while having the ability to anti tank as well. this ability needs to be nerfed.

if we r talking about history, the zis gun should not be able to penetrate the tiger 2 at all frontally and obvs that is not the case here.

^And this is blatant denial about faction design.

Soviets have flexible but weaker units. That's an undeniable fact.

ZiS-3 is worse at its job then any other ATG for the cost and it has lowest AT DPS out of them all.
1 Nov 2019, 14:28 PM
#44
avatar of Crecer13

Posts: 1494 | Subs: 3



ZiS-3 is a field gun, not dedicated anti tank gun.
Its as much light artillery as it is anti tank gun and it was used extensively in both its roles, its not relics fantasy, its probably most historical portrayal of usage of unit we have in CoH2.
45mm and 57mm were soviet dedicated ATGs in WW2.


Even anti-tank guns had excellent anti-infantry capabilities, because they had buckshot. Here is one interesting historical case:
 
On April 29, 1945, the 320th Guards Anti-Tank Regiment found itself on the path of the German units breaking through the Halbe encirclement. The ensuing battle was reminiscent of the battles of the Napoleonic times: the Germans had practically no armored vehicles and attacked the firing positions of the guns with large masses of infantry. As noted in the connection report:
"The masses of the corpses of the enemy lay around firing positions, and the enemy continued to harass"

During the battle, about 420 German soldiers were killed, 250 soldiers were taken prisoner, 2 armored personnel carriers were destroyed. Soviet losses 9 killed and 22 wounded.
1 Nov 2019, 22:16 PM
#45
avatar of 45thPOTUS

Posts: 13


^And this is blatant denial about faction design.

Soviets have flexible but weaker units. That's an undeniable fact.

ZiS-3 is worse at its job then any other ATG for the cost and it has lowest AT DPS out of them all.


sorry to pop ur bubble but the zis gun does 160dmg like every other at gun. the lack of penetration is made up for by its 6 man squad to improve its durability.

anddddddd the soviet does not have weaker units. non doc only
t1- penals can slug it out with any non doc axis infantry during mid early game
t2- zis gun barrage op
t3- t70 is the BEST light tank in the game with its raw wiping power
t4- if u think t34s are bad its a l2p issue. su85's low mobility is made up for by its self spotting ailibty+strong vet0 penetration. if u think Katyusha is trash, u obvs havent tried panzerwerfer.

please, just stop this blatant ally fanboyism. the mods are in heavy favour of buffing allys and nerfing axis units.
more obvs in the previous patch prior to IS nerf where brits dominated 1v1 tournaments while ally fanboys still screaming BUT AXIS OP!!!!
1 Nov 2019, 22:25 PM
#46
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 497



sorry to pop ur bubble but the zis gun does 160dmg like every other at gun. the lack of penetration is made up for by its 6 man squad to improve its durability.

anddddddd the soviet does not have weaker units. non doc only
t1- penals can slug it out with any non doc axis infantry during mid early game
t2- zis gun barrage op
t3- t70 is the BEST light tank in the game with its raw wiping power
t4- if u think t34s are bad its a l2p issue. su85's low mobility is made up for by its self spotting ailibty+strong vet0 penetration. if u think Katyusha is trash, u obvs havent tried panzerwerfer.

please, just stop this blatant ally fanboyism. the mods are in heavy favour of buffing allys and nerfing axis units.
more obvs in the previous patch prior to IS nerf where brits dominated 1v1 tournaments while ally fanboys still screaming BUT AXIS OP!!!!

The ZiS has the lowest rate of fire, that's why it is the worst at AT duty. It's not a bad AT gun either, but what it lacks in the AT department when compared to e.g. the PaK40, it needs to make up for in versatility, like most of the SOV units.
8 Nov 2019, 17:25 PM
#47
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 663


The ZiS has the lowest rate of fire, that's why it is the worst at AT duty. It's not a bad AT gun either, but what it lacks in the AT department when compared to e.g. the PaK40, it needs to make up for in versatility, like most of the SOV units.

It has a larger crew and wider arc. It is enough to offset a really slightly lower rof. To me the rate of for is similar btw. In my opinion the practical difference between a Pak and zis is negligible. The fact that zis can engage infantry can often be and is a gamechanger.
8 Nov 2019, 18:50 PM
#48
avatar of WingZero

Posts: 1378

The Zis barrage number of shells was nerfed and increased in muni cost. I think the AT gun is balanced and if a player spam these abilities you know for damn sure he/she will be muni starved the whole game!
8 Nov 2019, 19:02 PM
#49
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 663

The Zis barrage number of shells was nerfed and increased in muni cost. I think the AT gun is balanced and if a player spam these abilities you know for damn sure he/she will be muni starved the whole game!


Unless he does it effectively and simply kills with it.
8 Nov 2019, 19:15 PM
#50
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6401 | Subs: 1

The Zis barrage number of shells was nerfed and increased in muni cost. I think the AT gun is balanced and if a player spam these abilities you know for damn sure he/she will be muni starved the whole game!

That information is incorrect the number of shots was reduced especially since the last 2 shots where ineffective vs no building target and the munition cost was decreased. That was 2 years ago.
The most recent change was to decrease the chance to kills but increase the chance to serious health damage.
9 Nov 2019, 00:32 AM
#52
avatar of Kasarov
Senior Modmaker Badge

Posts: 330 | Subs: 1



this is blatant ally fanboyism. this is a rts GAME, has nthing to do with historical accuracy. the zisgun is the soviet ANTITANK gun, not a arty piece. there is no other AT gun in the game that has the ability to throw out nukes to counter inf while having the ability to anti tank as well. this ability needs to be nerfed.

if we r talking about history, the zis gun should not be able to penetrate the tiger 2 at all frontally and obvs that is not the case here.


Guess what, a WWII game that has nothing to do with historical accuracy is a bad game that gets a lot of hate (see Battlefield V). It's not blatant allied fanboyism if we simply just point out how weapons were used historically.

Through your line of reasoning, it should be okay to give Conscripts AKMs or US Rifles M16s because it's "just a game, has nothing to do with historical accuracy." This is a WWII game. If you don't like or care about seeing WWII history represented then play something else.

Fact of the matter is that ZiS-3 barrage is fine. It has basis in real life history and also isn't overperforming. ZiS-3 barrage is hardly a squad wiper for competent players that can simply move their infantry out of the way. If anything, its minimum range is the only thing that should be nerfed.
9 Nov 2019, 01:13 AM
#53
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 879



and soviet conscripts should only have 3 rifles for a squad of 6 men


Cite official document or edit it out and never mention it again.
9 Nov 2019, 06:44 AM
#55
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 663

In my opinion this barrage is largely controversial. Zis is a very good at gun (I don't see a difference here with the pak) with a lot of crew members, which gives it great survialiability. It is in the faction where it can be easily manned by conscripts if decrewed. The barrage makes it too potent for its price.
9 Nov 2019, 12:42 PM
#56
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6401 | Subs: 1

The change I would try would be the following:
Move barrage to vet 1
Reason:
Currently makes mortars less attractive since it can substitute them from the start for low MU cost.

Remove tracking from the unit:
The ability combined with barrages allows accurate targeting via mini map information.
9 Nov 2019, 12:52 PM
#57
avatar of SeductiveCardbordBox

Posts: 531 | Subs: 1

If you think the ZiS barrage is a mortar aletrnatvie, you need to get your eyes checked.
9 Nov 2019, 13:27 PM
#58
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6401 | Subs: 1

If you think the ZiS barrage is a mortar aletrnatvie, you need to get your eyes checked.


If you think the substitute means alternative, you need to get your eyes checked.
9 Nov 2019, 14:12 PM
#59
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 663

jump backJump back to quoted post9 Nov 2019, 12:42 PMVipper
The change I would try would be the following:
Move barrage to vet 1
Reason:
Currently makes mortars less attractive since it can substitute them from the start for low MU cost.

Remove tracking from the unit:
The ability combined with barrages allows accurate targeting via mini map information.


That is exactly the problem and the change is a good idea. The manpower and popcap you would have to use to build a mortar can be saved for more infantry units, and zis can be very effective as an indirect fire platform. Plus it is not inferior to Pak.
9 Nov 2019, 14:25 PM
#60
avatar of Musti

Posts: 92

jump backJump back to quoted post9 Nov 2019, 13:27 PMVipper


If you think the substitute means alternative, you need to get your eyes checked.

Im preeeetty sure substitute DOES mean alternative.
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