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russian armor

Zis Barrage

31 Oct 2019, 20:50 PM
#21
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 6307 | Subs: 1

@Hann
It's more than likely that the average AoE damage remained the same, but could be interesting seeing the performance once you account for vet2.
The problem is that i'm not sure how the vet 2 dmg buff is applied.

If anything just take the coh2db stats and replace only with this:

HE Barrage AOE damage from 1/0.15/0.125 to 1/0.375/0.125
HE Barrage AOE distance from 1.5/3/4.5 to 0/3/5

Then for vet2, just apply a raw 16.7% increase in the damage. The change should be linear, therefore adding a small region on which it can 1 shot units.


@Vipper

One thing is the intention and the other is the result or how it was applied.

In the case of tanks, yes, they have less wipe potential but they gained reliability. This was done not only touching the AoE but scatter values as well. Which is why i didn't bother analysing the values.

On the other hand, the Brummbar which received only changes to AoE, and saw a complete different performance, i've already done the numbers in the past and now i just put it into a graph.

The change is the same, but the effect is different as i mentioned before. It got a heavy wipe nerf but instead it received a major damage increase against infantry to account for that nerf.

The Zis change was just a redistribution of the damage with the removal of been able to 1 shot infantry.

As you said before, it's inline with mortar changes. Mortar changes were a big nerf, healthy, but a nerf.

I don't care what crusade you have between both of you, and i find it perfect to correct people. But i'm still surprise how a 1 line can get you so triggered. You are not discussing against the whole forum, i don't share Katitof opinion or any other. I have my own, so focus on who you are talking with and what point they are discussing.



31 Oct 2019, 21:08 PM
#22
avatar of Blebfeesh

Posts: 62

This entire discussion went rogue FAST
31 Oct 2019, 21:18 PM
#23
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 491

I just saw that on CoH2DB, the maximum AoE distance is 6, while far AoE distance point is 5.
So everyone KEEP IN MIND that the graph carries a systemic error.

I think the vet damage buff should be just a modifier as you suggested., which gives the barrage 93,36 base damage.



Prepatch ZiS / Postpatch ZiS / SU76 / Su76vet

kill radius for x damage: 1,500 / 0,000 / 0,000 / 0,687
area under plot: 204,87 / 205,02 / 205,02 / 239,26
functional area under plot: 204,87 / 203,28 / 203,28 / 232,59

Correction values for areas:
Should be +10 for Prepatch ZiS and SU76 and +12 for Su76vet. Don't know much about the Prepatch ZiS. If the maximum AoE was 6 as well, then add ~17.


So the vet on Su76 gives it a kill radius of almost 0,7 m which is pretty decent and a AI damage boost of about 14,5%.
31 Oct 2019, 21:21 PM
#24
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 6307 | Subs: 1

This entire discussion went rogue FAST


Welcome to the forums, i hoped that at least your point was addressed. :hijack:
31 Oct 2019, 21:26 PM
#25
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
Director of Moderation Badge

Posts: 3204 | Subs: 1

This entire discussion went rogue FAST


On the contrary, you at least opened a discussion about how effective the zis barrage is.
31 Oct 2019, 21:29 PM
#26
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 491

This entire discussion went rogue FAST

Rule #1: Every thread will be derailed from page 2 onwards.

Welcome to the forum.
31 Oct 2019, 21:30 PM
#27
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 6307 | Subs: 1

snip


Yep, the damage doesn't drop off just because the far distance is different from the total radius.
1 Nov 2019, 00:54 AM
#28
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6375 | Subs: 1


...

As you said before, it's inline with mortar changes. Mortar changes were a big nerf, healthy, but a nerf.

Mortar changes where intended as straight nerf and where actually hit with many different nerfs. There is no doubt about that.
"MORTAR CHANGES
A number of general changes have been applied to a number of light indirect-fire options to reduce their squad wipe potential, improve anti-garrison counterplay, and reduce their range in the late game."

Their damage AOE was not improve in any way, only their damage to garrison was increased.

The change brought the barrage inline as to one shooting but the changes where different since the AOE profile was improved and the reload remains extremely low compared to Mortars. One has around 4.4 sec to react to the barrage before the second shell lands compared to the almost 7 second of the mortar.


...
But i'm still surprise how a 1 line can get you so triggered.
...

I am perfectly calm. In my opinion the change is a redesign that reduces RNG, if you want to think of it as nerf it fine by me.
1 Nov 2019, 06:44 AM
#29
avatar of 45thPOTUS

Posts: 13

are u srs??? the zis gun barrage already fire nukes at axis infantry and u want to buff it even more? this ability should be removed unless axis at guns also get to fire nukes.
clearly axis is op with the lower winrate right?
1 Nov 2019, 06:56 AM
#30
avatar of 45thPOTUS

Posts: 13

Speaking of zis barrage, it's a bit too good. Pak TWP got nerfed for a reason. Prenerf TWP allowed u to basically secure a kill on any medium with double pak and a single TWP. Zis barrage is just as dangerous as prenerf TWP as it has lethal accuracy/scatter and can usually wipe a full health support weapon crew in 2 shells (only 1 shell needed vs wounded squads.) As well, zis barrage loads basically instantaneously while there is a significant delay for TWP meaning it's nearly impossible for counterplay for zis barrage.


this x100. zis barrage needs to be removed or arm axis at guns with nukes
1 Nov 2019, 08:53 AM
#31
avatar of Raviloli

Posts: 58



this x100. zis barrage needs to be removed or arm axis at guns with nukes


Give the ZIS gun TWP, PaK pen and RoF, and it's a deal.
1 Nov 2019, 09:53 AM
#32
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 13757 | Subs: 7



this x100. zis barrage needs to be removed or arm axis at guns with nukes

Panzergrenadiers already throw nukes.
Your wish was granted.
1 Nov 2019, 11:18 AM
#33
avatar of Leo251

Posts: 141

This ability, in a weapon that should be purely anti tank, should not be so lethal.

A good improvement would be to add a delay or animation before the first shot, in order to make it more "readable", similar to the AP ammo load on the HMG.
1 Nov 2019, 11:21 AM
#34
avatar of 45thPOTUS

Posts: 13


Panzergrenadiers already throw nukes.
Your wish was granted.


what r u smoking?? Panzergrenadier is not a AT gun mate.
1 Nov 2019, 11:22 AM
#35
avatar of 45thPOTUS

Posts: 13



Give the ZIS gun TWP, PaK pen and RoF, and it's a deal.


y should the zis gun have all those abilitys??. give my pak ability to launch nukes, and a 6 man squad its a done deal.
1 Nov 2019, 11:25 AM
#36
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 13757 | Subs: 7

jump backJump back to quoted post1 Nov 2019, 11:18 AMLeo251
This ability, in a weapon that should be purely anti tank, should not be so lethal.

A good improvement would be to add a delay or animation before the first shot, in order to make it more "readable", similar to the AP ammo load on the HMG.


ZiS-3 is a field gun, not dedicated anti tank gun.
Its as much light artillery as it is anti tank gun and it was used extensively in both its roles, its not relics fantasy, its probably most historical portrayal of usage of unit we have in CoH2.
45mm and 57mm were soviet dedicated ATGs in WW2.
1 Nov 2019, 11:29 AM
#37
avatar of Leo251

Posts: 141


Panzergrenadiers already throw nukes.
Your wish was granted.

In this post we are discussing about Zis (or maybe SU76), not PG.
1 Nov 2019, 11:32 AM
#38
avatar of Leo251

Posts: 141



ZiS-3 is a field gun, not dedicated anti tank gun.
Its as much light artillery as it is anti tank gun and it was used extensively in both its roles, its not relics fantasy, its probably most historical portrayal of usage of unit we have in CoH2.
45mm and 57mm were soviet dedicated ATGs in WW2.

I know what Zis3 was in WW2.

Thats why I only suggested to add an animation-like or a delay to the load of the barrage.
1 Nov 2019, 12:03 PM
#39
avatar of 45thPOTUS

Posts: 13



ZiS-3 is a field gun, not dedicated anti tank gun.
Its as much light artillery as it is anti tank gun and it was used extensively in both its roles, its not relics fantasy, its probably most historical portrayal of usage of unit we have in CoH2.
45mm and 57mm were soviet dedicated ATGs in WW2.


this is blatant ally fanboyism. this is a rts GAME, has nthing to do with historical accuracy. the zisgun is the soviet ANTITANK gun, not a arty piece. there is no other AT gun in the game that has the ability to throw out nukes to counter inf while having the ability to anti tank as well. this ability needs to be nerfed.

if we r talking about history, the zis gun should not be able to penetrate the tiger 2 at all frontally and obvs that is not the case here.
1 Nov 2019, 12:08 PM
#40
avatar of HansLanda

Posts: 9


if we r talking about history, the zis gun should not be able to penetrate the tiger 2 at all frontally and obvs that is not the case here.


and soviet conscripts should only have 3 rifles for a squad of 6 men
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