The Stuart has the main gun and its hull fired machine gun. The issue is here is that the Far Range for the main gun is set to 30 while it has a maximum range of 40. From 30-40 it has severe accuracy penalties making the main gun useless vs anything that isn't a vehicle (vehicles have much larger target sizes allowing the main gun to actually hit something)
I'll put some clarification here:
The Stuart has indeed a very unique and also odd main gun profile, but what you state above is partially wrong.
There is no accuracy penalty above far range. The accuracy will stay at the far accuracy, which is 0.025 for the Stuart. The Stuart has overall lower accuracy at mid to long range, this is due to the unique profile. But not due to some additiinal penalty. Accuracy does not matter against infantry at any range, not even point blank. The statement saying the gun was bad at 30+ meters against 'anything that isn't a vehicle' due to the low accuracy does not make sense. Scatter is what really matters against infantry at all ranges.
Second correction, the -1 to my knowledge for the T70 does not mean that no calvulation will be done, but that the values will be infered from the min and max range. It is basically the same as stating the normal 0-20-40 profile.
On paper yes, ST AOE technically much better, but the main problem is, even considering that it has better chances at wiping retreating units, ST still need much more pre-positioning to be able to roll in, unload and roll out.
The main mode for both units is to already align with their target before moving into the fight, either because you have to (ST) or because you don't want to waste another 1-2 seconds with turret rotation (AVRE). The ST has some downsides and feels more clunky, but my point was not a general comparison of the usefulness of the two units, my point was really specifically to your point saying that the long AoE damage does not matter.
Not to mention that, support weapons like AT guns cant soft-retreat from AVRE aswell, unless pre-spotted and retreating support weapons have very big chance to be wiped as well. Also, unless its volks\PFs\Ostts all squad models will be in kill radius of the AVRE anyway.
Objectively ST AOE provides better blob control, but its still imo very debatable if its bigger AOE actually that much powerful and impactful.
But if we only speak about scenario where ST rolled in, successfully shot and rolled out, ignoring everything what comes before it, then yes its AOE provides much more.
I don't know about ATG and MG squad spacing, but normal infantry squads have models that are easily 3-4 meters from the center. So even if the attacker perfectly aims at the center of the squad, moving 3-4 meters will make sure that at least the squad as a whole survives for both vehicles.
That's why I am saying that the longer range AoE of the ST actually matters. Because many squads don't consist of 100% healthy members. The ST can consistently hit all members of a squad, dealing 44 damage as a minimum (unless my info is wrong). If only 2 members survive after the shot, the outcome is heavily different: Against the AVRE, they will likely get not damaged at all. So even if they were pre-damaged with ~20 damage each, they still retreat with the remaining 120 in total and are decently hard to kill by the supporting infantry. Against the ST, even if they were full health before, their total health will amount to 72 when full health or 32 if already damaged. That's way easier to wipe.
Now, the prime targets of both are not main line infantry but ATGs and MGs, and I will neglect all the tiny differences for several factions here. Both of these are definitely easier to hit, nevertheless it is still possible to frequently dodge the deadly zone of both the AVRE and ST. But the AVRE is almost literally a coin toss: Either you kill a model, or it does not get damaged. There is almost nothing in between. A dodging model does not get damaged, and if that model has decent HP the squad might make it out. The ST helps a lot, because even dodging the central blast will bring the HP heavily down.
Just to make it clear: I don't am not debating if one unit is better than the other, I am debating your point claiming that the far AoE did not matter.
It indeed did not matter if there was no support on the field, but it matters a lot if there is even only 1 infantry squad supporting the push.
Dont Penals and Volks have the same RA when vetted(according to march 2021 patch notes), both come out to a target size of .77.
Cost from 300 to 290
Reinforce time from 5.4 to 4.5
Veterancy 3 weapon accuracy from +30% to +20%
Veterancy 2 Received accuracy from -15% to -23%
You're actually right on this one. I just quickly looked it up on serealia and the site was not updated for the Penal change. My bad.
Difference being ST has bigger AOE (which hardly means anything since you still need direct hits to wipe) for the cost of manual reaload and lack of turret. AVRE has smaller AOE as a price for having turret and auto-reload.
Just picking out this one point:
The far AoE range is super strong.
The AVRE forces you to predict the retreat path almost perfectly, if a model is only a tiny bit outside of the 8 meter radius it does not get damaged at all. The ST allows for way worse path prediction. It kills a model with half 44 HP up to 14 meters radius. So even if you misjudged the retreat path or timing, you have a good chance of wiping the squad if it has been damaged before by small arms fire, or the other way around: If you have a squad nearby, it this one has a good chance of killing off the remaining model(s).
In team games this is basically always the case since the unit density is super high. No ST/AVRE operates on its own.
Does anyone know how much model drops ramp up the DPS of the PPSH? It always seemed to me like it should synergize pretty well but I've never known the specifics.
Damage is increased by about 4,5%. This means that you lose about 12,9% damage if the first model drops instead of the 16,6%. Really nothing huge, but okay. Not enough by far for saving PPSh Penals from being UP.
PPSh Penals just show how important RA, stealth and sprint are to CQC squads. MP40 Volks are the only second CQC unit lacking all three, but at the very least they come with smoke on top of the normal Faust and incendiary that Volks carry and better RA when vetted.
PPSh Penals sit somewhere in the middle.
Too large RA for being good at assaulting, no real utility, no ATG backup so you'd still need PTRS Penals at some point. They even come with a commander that gives you PPSh Guards if you want, that do everything PPSh Penals can do but better.
Oh yeah because we can't nerf Jackson as much as we want let's make it unreliable. That's a way to balance it I guess.
I've asked you multiple times now to explain how the Jackson becomes overly weak, how this delay has not been taken into account yet and to make show that this is indeed a bigger issue.
I've tried to put it into context and quantify the problem at least to the (little) extend that it is possible. You've not answered any of those core questions.
I'll leave it at that, I've made my points. You are absolutely free to disagree, but unless there is a totally new point to be made, there is not much more to say from my side. Whoever reads this can decide on their own whose argumentation they find more convincing.
Jackson's mobility matters in a way because there literally nothing able to cover the Jackson. You're reverting the reality, Jackson's stat aren't the cause but the consequence of serious gaps in USF roaster. If its mobility could have been reduced it would have been done 1 million times by the modding team the same way they reduced its armor to the bare minimum because why not.
So what is the point?
If the balance team deemed the Jacksons alpha strike capabilities as too little, they would have buffed it 1 million times as well?
Jacksons mobility is very high, it can run away if ambushed, it can run to safety if ambushed. If not, it was out of position. This works the same way for every other tank.
The situations you talk about happen, but are also not the stuff that happens every second time. And in even fewer cases, this half second made an actual difference.
From that point onward you can't compare mobility which is a stop gap covering the rest of USF late game issues and Wind up that's here only for nothing.
Exactly that's what I am talking about.
Jackson has already been balanced towards its faction and its own performance. Improve it, and it needs to pay somewhere else.
Why do you assume that the Jackson has been balanced in all its strengths to its faction and environment, but suddenly this wind up oddity that has been there in plain sight since the very beginning has not?
It is indeed shitty that this small delay is not directly communicated to the player. But neither are veterancy bonusses, mobility and penetration for example, and in contrast to the delay that even the dude starting CoH2 for the first time could notice, they are also not directly visible in game. Yet you argue that all those more invisible and sometimes even harder to grasp stats have been taken into account so that the Jackson can make up holes in the USF roster, but wind up has been forgotten.
If wind up is not so important, then why only the Jackson and M10 have them? every tank has the stat available, you just need to add the same value for all of them and suddenly there isn't anymore one tank that fire sometime due to RNG or whatever 2 seconds after the others.
You got the answers what those stats do in literally the first couple of posts in this thread.
Not necessarily, you're stuck with one from many scenarios. There are quantity of map where you need to take risk and close the distance with the Jackson to simply do something, maps where you'll never be able to keep the distance because shot blockers don't allow it, and last but not least you're also facing JTG and Elef which fire faster their opening shot at long range.
Speed and mobility is irrelevant here, the Jackson isn't significantly faster than other tank to make this stat much relevant, and Axis tank get blitz at vet1 and various doctrinal options to take on the Jackson range and mobility.
At the end your answer is that it doesn't matter, well it does as per the video I posted and the nature of the game in which shooting first gives you an edge, even more when your opponent has a guaranteed penetration unlike you.
Now we can argue about skill so it doesn't happen if you do it well but skill would be a more valid argument if in reality who's played better shot first and not the game deciding that yeah maybe you played better but not enough to shot first because wind up for you only.
Mobility matters a lot. The Jackson can withdraw from a fight much more easily than slower vehicles. It can't if Axis absolutely force it, but the Jackson has a decent area it can cover, even if ambushed. This makes it easier to retreat to supporting units and thereby increase the risk for the diving Axis tank. If you want to argue that a half second dela for the shot matters a lot in many scenarios, you can't seriously argue that high mobility suddenly unimportant.
Performance against JT and Ele is also unimportant. With any Allied TD, you eat a shot, fire one back if you can and have to leave. The second shot of the Ele/JT comes late enough to stay half a second longer. I mean, you're not being ambushed by one at close range, so you probably need to bridge only 10 meters before being out of range if your Jackson has been somewhat properly positioned. The point that you're refering to THE two top tier doctrinal TDs to partially support your argument shows what I have been saying in the first place: it's not a big deal.
Now, to repeat myself:
This is not a performance issue that has recently come up or was hard to spot. This is an issue literally every player can see every game a Jackson is bought. It has very likely already priced into the overall cost and performance of the Jackson. The Jackson is good generally and good for the price even with it. It is a property of the Jackson like the slow ROF is a property of the Firefly. If you're aware of this specialty, great. Place your Jackson slightly more conservatively according to the dangerous situations you refer to above, and you'll get even more out of it than other players. If you want to buff the Jackson in some way to compensate the slower alpha shot, something else has to give.
What can be more explicit than -You're always going to shot second, never first.
Now, don't do a strawman, I never said Jackson should win engagement below range 40 or whatever, I said whenever there is a slugfest between tanks at firing range you're never going to shot first with the Jackson unless your opponent need to rotate their turret (and even here that's not always garantie).
In a game where majority engagement last couple of seconds, it matters a lot who shot first.
Again:
The wind up time matters for 3 meters. The distance you have to spot further than other Allied factions is pretty much exactly 3 meters, and now consider this because this is important: against a rushing enemy at top speed. 43/53 meters instead of 40/50. Then the shot of a Jackson will hit around the same point as a shot of the SU85/Firefly/basically any other tank.
That's literally what you're complaining about. Not nothing, but also not huge.
What you are describing as a "slugfest" is being ambushed by the opponent at sub 40 range. You're supposed to lose. If you properly spot for your Jackson up to range 43, you'll not have this issue.
Again, it's not nothing, but also not a huge deal. All I am asking is how you justify how this makes the Jackson really suffer given all it's advantages, especially the high mobility to keep distance.
Would agree if every axis tank had guaranteed penetration.
Jackson has guaranteed penetration at every shot, however that's no true of panthers/tigers/panzers. It's even visible in the video you posted.
That's pretty much non info. Panther won't fight Elefant anyway and Jackson bounces even in the video. But that's not the point of it. The point is the time delay.
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