Nerf Jackson reload? A single panther can dive it (+ lack of reliable mines on USF)
Nerf penetration? Heavies roll over.
Nerf HP? LoL
Nerf Armour? It's already the lowest it can be for a tank so no point.
Nerf range? Elefant goes BRRRR even more. Panther goes BRRRR. Stug goes BRRR.
I mean you can nerf these but this should go hand in hand with buffs to the ATG.
Additional obstacle is that simple math á la "-20 far pen on Jackson, +20 far pen on ATG" does not work. But to be honest I'd leave it at that, I have actually talked too much about the Jackson again.
So back to topic:
Just judging from stats (I do not own the commander for the E8), I'd say the E8 lacks a role. Looks like it was supposed to be a anti medium tank brawler. It lacks the penetration against a Panther, even close range is unreliable. It just has quite a lot of armor, although even this is not enough to bounce Axis heavy AT, so it's also not really meant to soak up shots damage from these sources. The 76mm fulfills a similar anti medium role, but is more of a glass cannon approach compared to the E8. Given that USF lacks proper damage dealers against tanks apart from the (sorry) Jackson, the 76mm seems to work better in that regard. Also the switchable rounds let it scale against heavies. |
There's no doubt that for cost, the E8 is an excellent counter to medium armor and pretty much any other faction would be happy to have it in their roster, but both it and the M10 suffer from the same issue.
The elite zooks for officers is an interesting idea to compensate for de-tuning the Jackson, but I'm not sure what would be a reasonable trade off.
Perhaps rate of fire? Rate of fire is a weakness for the firefly as it also has poor mobility and turret traverse but the jackson suffers neither of these. Maybe a 1-2 second longer reload?
Perhaps correspondingly the E8 could have a half a second faster reload.
I think the main issue is not the bazookas and the lack of availability for elite bazookas, but the ATG.
SOV and UKF have two high penetration units: Their ATG and the heavy TD. To counter mediums, these factions can rely on their ATGs which allows to make their heavy TDs more vulnerable in some regards (casemate, slow ROF and movement). Against Panthers and heavier units, both units work absolutely fine.
But USF does not have that. Additionally, the mediums of the Axis factions are quite different in armor. Bazookas and especially elite ones work okay against the OST P4, not so much though against OKW's P4. Similarly, they are unreliable against Panthers, a fact which is also true for their ATG. So in the end to reliably counter a Panther, USF relies on building a vehicle themselves, the Jackson. All other factions could get another PaK to defend against a Panther after loosing their heavy TD or simply already having invested into a Sherman. USF still can't, even if officers get elite bazookas. The combo of Cromwell/6-Pounder or T34/ZiS can work against Panthers and OKW P4, Sherman/57mm does not work that great.
And before anyone mentions it: Yes, you can dump munitions into your ATG to make it really good against heavies, but in the end this only get's you so far in a faction that lacks mines and can lose snares in the late game after infantry wipes.
Jackson is the only unit holding USF's late game together. Any serious nerf - as reasonable as it might be from a design point of view - would probably kill this faction.
So in conclusion:
Touching the Jackson is a difficult unit, because USF relies on it to shut down heavy tanks. The current performance level of USF's late game AT capabilities seems mostly fine in my eyes. But heavier nerfs to the Jackson (especially it's potential against heavy units) probably cannot be compensated by having a bit better bazookas that work semi-reliably against mediums on 1-2 squads, because these bazookas could not fill the gap in the anti-heavy department. I think USF's anti medium power could stem a nerfed Jackson, but the anti-heavy department could not. |
Thread: Toxic26 Jul 2020, 14:11 PM
Anecdotal evidence blaming Americans as being the worst and I get a post invised for referencing my wife and daughters for being 'political'.
I'm actually genuinely confused about the moderation.
Fichtenmoped explained that your post was not the issue. Even Baba's post by itself is not an issue since it was clearly a joke, but referencing current politics usually draws down the whole thread with it as soon as people jump in on the discussion. And those "discussions" are usually quite dirty. Was it necessary to shut it down pre-emptively? You can argue with that, but in the end these "discussions" just cause a ton of work and help no one in this community.
You can obviously criticize Elchino's post if you have a different opinion. |
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As NorthFire said, main strength of the 76mm is the reload. Even if you're unlucky, it shoots in less than 5 seconds. An vet brings it down to less than about 3,5 (just tested it even because it sounds crazy. It's true though).
AoE wise they don't differ much. All share the same profile as the AP shell of the normal Sherman (which in turn are slightly worse than a P4), scatter areas are slightly larger though. So don't expect a miracle for each single shot.
We had some discussions already about giving them more distinct roles, but it was quite a while ago where the game had other issues. Maybe now is a better time to rethink these tanks. |
Nah I'm using it defensively just like you say. My point is its still has too many gimmics, very map dependant and its a common situation where you should have had wiped something, but it didnt. And additional 40 AOE damage and 5 more range and all other stuff, doesnt really cover all other disadvantages it has.
In comparasent, AVRE is just much more plesent and easy to use and can be used effectively in both defence and offence just as good, for the same timings and cost.
I am not saying use it defensively, it's actually better on offense, because there your chances are higher to wipe a static MG or ATG.
I agree though that the AVRE is nicer to use. However I think this mostly comes down to the turret and the long pack up times of Axis MGs. To the first point: Once your ST got spotted too early, you have to pull it back. There is no way to target a different squad, since this means rotation and exposing the weak rear armor. AVRE can sit on the spot and threaten other units by just rotating the turret. The other minor issues are team weapons are primary targets, but both 50 cal and Maxim can run away quicker than MG42 or MG34 could. Plus other things like the reload etc.
I would not counter balance this by increasing the STs AoE though, the AoE is fine if not even too good for the current state of the game. I'd start with a smoke call in ability for it, then we could re evaluate and see if it needs other changes. Offensive changes should be done only by reload or even more indirect factors like speed/rotation. |
Yeah if only we didnt have excamples where is fails to wipe weapon crews when they are not perfectly in the center.
What does this have to do with hit and run tactics?
This is a question of the AoE profile, not of the tactics how to use a unit
Again tunnel vision. While its faster then AVRE it takes it almost x2 time to reach maximum speed and rotate.
Longer range is only an aurgument when you are ambushing something. In offence this longer range wont change much, since against someone who is paying attention you need to take into consideration delay before the shot. So in general you want to move close at about same 30-35 to make a somewhat effective shot.
Rotation should not matter when attacking, the slow rotation rate is there to make it more vulnerable to flanks. Your ST is already perfectly aligned with it's target before you drive in.
And also you should take a max range shot if possible. Scatter is almost non existent with both units, so going closer does not help too much. The further you move in, the more clear it becomes to your opponent what you are going to target. Max range shots help by reducing the time that your opponent has to react in this case. If he only has 1 second or 2 before you issue the shooting command, then you bring the whole delay down to ~5 seconds (1-2 second popping in of ST, 3 second shot delay, maybe a second flight time). If you close in you will lose >2 seconds just by driving, but gain only maybe half a second projectile flight time. You also expose yourself more and spend more time in repairs.
I agree that the ST could use a minor buff, in my eyes as already stated a defensive one, but I also think that you are using the unit wrong judging by what you have written. |
Donno, should it?
Would it make any difference?
It would impact exclusively 1v1, where neither of them is used outside of meme strats.
You'll have all the ullumulus complaining that more expensive unit does better job then.
I've said it already, neither of these should ever be implemented to coh2, the mechanics and principles they are build around are unfit for the game completely, they will never be in good balance spot and because of how fundamentally different they work and are meant to be used, they will never be balanced against each others performance.
If you say so.
Looks like it's impossible then to change any of the values of the ST in the mod editor.
Like most casemates, you see the ST in team games exclusively. 1v1 will never be impacted at all.
According to your logic, you cannot balance most units at all. SU85, Jackson, Firefly? Nope, no chance according to you. All these units function differently, but fulfill the same role. Hence, many of their offensive combat stats and even vet bonuses are similar or straight copies.
Since there is no clear winner on the AoE profiles, but the AVRE is better in most stats regarding survivability, there is no reason these units should cost the same.
Btw, since I dont have an excel installed, can you please make a graph with old ST AOE profile. And compare them to the new one and AVRE.
Yes
In coh2 hit and run themed vehicled are made so that they cant sustain much of a punishement and being vulnerable if they stay under direct fire or being focused on badly. Sure if AVRE had an armor of a medium, so you needed smoke and pre-planning when and where to attack, but its not. It has proper armor of a heavy tank and health aswell.
How is AVRE is vulnerable when its approaching the front line or being flanked by mediums. Its a hit and run heavy tank. Which can hit, bounce half of the shot, take few one, still have around ~600-700 HP, smoke a sigar and then run.
And its not like Allies in general dont have better long range TDs.
Yes, this is exactly my point. You said the ST were sitting in combat more than the AVRE, which is not the case. The AVRE is much less vulnerable and quite a bit slower. It's meant to drive forwards and sit there while sustaining all the damage.
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All it do better, is deal half hp damage past 8 range, AVRE in excange wipes everything in 2 more range.
Since this is the second time this pops up: It's actually about 1,5 meters, not 2 in difference.
How you can explain then, that the unit with better mobility, firing rate and turret is ment to sit in combat and be more resistant to flank attacks. While unit with infirior armor, mobility, and no turret is not? ST is ending up sitting in combat more then AVRE simply due to all of this.
You shoot yourself in the foot with that argument, these properties fit the Sturmtiger theme. Drive forwards, fire the rocket and then go back. Because the ST cannot sit in combat because of its lower armor and getting therefore penned more often. Casemate, faster driving, armor, reload, all this suggests hit and run. |
1) Reduce AVRE wiping potential to match Sturmtiger one, AVRE overal all would be still better, but it wont be a wiping machine like it is now.
2) Increase overall Sturmtiger wiping potential to match AVRE one.
ST has better and larger AoE then AVRE.
You have graphs in this very thread.
I don't know how/why you guys say the ST had such a (clearly) better profile. The differences are quite slim and it's hard to predict the effects on a real match.
AVRE is meant to actually sit in combat and take shots, ST not.
Well then it's price should go up? |
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Does someone know how the chances are to get the main gun crit? |
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