good luck to spamming Royal Engineer until you get Heavy upgrade
like i said before. Royal Engineer not Fine-ish combat squad what so ever, Give them 3 LMG in late game to win 4/10 match against vet 3 MG42 Gren and get only 1% HP model left is stupidness.
Map control is one thing, but holding it is another. Sapper cant hold aganist any mainline inf in early, mid game (even with 2 brens). For every model trade, UKF lose more than Axis.
You are absolutely missing what I'm saying.
Map control translates to more resources.
Those resources translate to better support elements. I'm not under the illusion that sappers are going to be obersoldaten, but i think that because of their adaptability and scale ability it has the potential to absolutely upset the game balance as we know.
You seem to think sappers can't fight, that's simply false. They can fight better than pios can and scale better as well. I can see it potentially snowballing dramatically.
More map control means faster AEC means enemy needs faster AT, which means sappers map control can go further ect ect.
Obviously this is theory crafting but again, I see potential for fucking up the game and it should be watched.
Their existance in T1 or T0 or as a call-in is already replacing grens.
but they are not supposed to. in t1, players will have access to both and gain nothing from using exlusivly ostroppen (where now they gain 10 fuel towards faster pgrens) meaning they are more apt to be alongside grens, who are better combatants- there is room for both.
Yes maxim cost the same HMG-42 and require a building and that is why I a do not go around claiming that maxims are the cheapest hmg in the game, as people do about grenadiers.
80mp once hardly inflates the cost that much, as you are unlocking their snare and othe units at the same time. cons pay the same for molitovs alone and dont gain access to a slew of support units as well. completely obj4ctivly grens are indeed the cheapest core infantry.
So an engi unit with sidetech upgrades, tones of mun , punch hard ? Not really shocking, they still get shred by AI unit as they should. All they need is a small increase in price I think.
They are already overburdened as they have to be used as snare unit and optionally AT squad on top of the usual engi stuff.
And you can't start a game nor win one with 4-5 engi unit as UKF.
you are ignoring scaling.
its not that they are going to be god tier, its that they are going to be too cost efficient and too flexible
sappers cost nearly 2/3 the price of tommies, which means increased map control, which means resources
they also benefit from bolster which means 25% more health and firepower (although the benefits of an extra man are far greater than 25% because increased models means increased targets, which can lead to less damage concentrated on singular targets)
they also iirc have a 0.9 target size, which is below average making em harder to hit out of the box
they also have a snare so you wont be able to aggressively punish them in the light phase
they can also get PIATS to they will scale into the mid late game as AT
they are also cheap per head to reinforce any captured weapon teams
they can also build forward heals, reinforcement and emplacements
they can destroy cover
they can lay mines
they can lay wire
they can also heal your armour
they have the potential to be a zerg rush that can adapt readily to what ever the enemy does to fight them.
it needs to be tested but it has A LOT of room for making the game realllly shiity.
wut?
more than all your stock armour already having an engineer built in? perhaps they should be able to temporarily turn the tank in to a perishing? like what do you want here?
i disagree. you have to pay for the privilege of even having molitovs. if the molitov was part of their standard kit, or vet ability, or unlocked through other means than buying it specifically- hell, even cheaper, i could agree with it being "crippled" but the way it is now its a joke of an ability unless you are vetted.
they USED to be cheap, but they have gotten price increases steadily- most con abilities have. oorah, molitov, trip flares.
the biggest issue with the long animation is that if the model throwing dies, you just wasted all that time, a model AND gained nothing from it.
The argument that keeps being used is that the molotov starts damaging when it hits, instead of having the timer. The problem with that argument is that the DPS from the molotov starts low so you would have to sit in the flames awhile to do much of anything. It ends up making molotov's nearly worthless until cons have vet.
damage is the same, the timer sort of helps offset the throw speed, but the real probelm is the combination of throws peed and range. frankly if the flame nade had molitov throw speed, but maintained its range and moltiov stayed short ranged and have a decent throw speed both abilities would be much more balanced. no more volks being able to frontally burn out a MG because the range and throw speed was faster than the suppression, and no more cons standing out in the open waiting for winter to warm Gerry up.
Grenadier cost the same as Conscripts and the require a building.
oh boy, wait till you learn about maxims.... not only do they cost the same as mg42 and require a building, but that building costs double the manpower AND the faction doesnt get "free" extra manpower to start with....
whats more that initial cost is more than made up for with cons extra side tech costs. you get more with grens and their building than you do with cons and no building, or even cons AND a building for that matter...
Moving Osttruppen to t1 in there current state will kill two doctrines, all I'm asking for is a minor improvement to their combat ability by removing their out of cover penalty to compensate for being move to t1. They will still be the worst then Grens in everyway except for manpower cost.
i believe they get a cost reduction to 200 with being tied to buildings, but if landing 30 seconds later isnt going to kill the unit, what its going to killing pgrens landing a minute sooner. ostroppen will still have uses, in that they are cheaper and more durable than grens- especially late game if you lose a gren squad or find the need tom recrew lots of weapons
they should absolutely not lose the cover mechanic because then they WILL replace grens if they are in the same building. THEY ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO BE YOUR CORE COMBATANT.
Its not a joke on its own, but in game context it is a joke. Because we have Ost with pios who can spot from the get go, and we have Tommies who has more sight earlier aswell as having AOE self heal much earlier.
So it is indeed a joke. Just like molotov throwing time next to rifles molotov. As I said, its nice flavor vet bonuses, but its not more then that.
The molitovs thing is a travesty which I've talked about before but to keep on about the heals and sight, these are great bonuses because they are extra- or rather should be, volks vet as a whole is lacking compared to other units but in context of those being fixed these are good boons.
Just because another unit can do it doesn't dilute THIS uniy doing it, because otherwise it can't.
Contextually it even makes sense for volks:
Pios are a starter unit on a very defensive faction. It let's ost keep tabs and be ready for what's about to come. It let's them position thir mg or pak ect.
Tommies, we're supposed to be defensive infantry, so the boons for pios sort of help in the same way.
Volks, late game we know fall off. The bonus let's them get their combined arms ready a bit sooner when defending or scout the enemy when attacking.
For Volks it lets the okw player decide if it's something volks can handle themselves or if they need help. It let's them spot flanks to their expensive armour ect
Its really a part of the evolution of volks as the match progresses. They become more defensive and more supportivem in theory of course.
Not to say there isn't room for improvement, but we mustn't down play an extra 7 radius of vision (so really an extra 14 range in diameter) across 4ish squads and the information that can yield.
The thing about Intel bonuses like this is that it's hard to quantify as you are using it without even knowing.
Wow, they can self-heal out of combat and have sight radius but still standart mainline fighting range. Jeez, someone please stop this OKW OP and axis bias already.
On a serious note, VGs vet 4 and 5 gives flavor bonuses, because "OKW supposed to have 5 lvls of vet", aside from that it arguably gives you nothing in terms of combat perfomance.
Self heal is no joke, and the LOS will allow them to help the rest of the army as well as picking fights for themselves. Vision is criminally under valued by most on the forum here.
I think all volks need is a relook at their vet. It got gutted because of insta vet with shreks and hasn't been looked at since.
Whats more I also don't agree with the con accuracy nerf. Cons don't get centralized DPS to burst down models or concentrate DPS. They are one of the only units in the game (not counting CQB units) that are like this the extra 10% accuracy only let them cut through the combination of Vetted enemies and yellow cover saturation everywhere.
If it's too much of an issue just tie it to being in cover themselves, or make it an oorah bonus.
I suggest you play OKW and try to fight double Bren tommies, Guards, Airborne Guards, Paras, Ranger with VG and let us know how well they do.
Well if the okw is choosing not to use the tools at their disposal, like obers, then that is in them. Having the tools and electing to not use them is not the same as lacking them entirely
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