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Thread: Is the WC 51 overperforming ? 8 Aug 2020, 20:10 PM Jump back to quoted post8 Aug 2020, 17:15 PMachpawel Well, tbfh the upgrade makes it very potent. Can it still carry a squad after it is upgunned? Even if it traded 50-50 with kubel after the upgrade it would be a much better vehicle. With crew and many useful abilities. Its mg is better than kubels' at fighting infantry. So to make it a better design a price increase of 50 would probably make it somehow at least "pay" for all the goodies. It wouldn't be enough but you just can't make such a vehicle too expensive. Tbh I'd rather pull both abilities off it and stick then on the cav rifles since infantry is supposed to scale better than LVs. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: State of OKW in the meta 8 Aug 2020, 15:59 PM Jump back to quoted post8 Aug 2020, 14:47 PMSp33dSnake Agree on this. You lose your starting Strum squad...not saying it's GG, but it's extremely tough and uphill from there. That's why you are not supposed to lose them. It's part of the reason they have the best RA of any starting unit. Additionally if you do lose them their duties can be offset by trucks (medics and repairs) the entire theme of okw is few specialists that need to be taken care of. Losing these specialists is supposed to hurt. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Is the WC 51 overperforming ? 8 Aug 2020, 15:56 PM Jump back to quoted post8 Aug 2020, 14:41 PMachpawel I guess the whole package is too much compared to similar vehicles imo. I feel, for example, kubel should trade more evenly with it. I'd adjust (increase) its cost to a bit more tbh. The kuble trades quite favorably with it until it gets a gun. The price difference is only 10mp before that so it shouldn't be beating its ass too hard. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: SU-85 and SU-768 Aug 2020, 15:54 PM Let's start with adding utility instead of Stat changes to the su76. The AT overlap makes it a shakey road to turning back into spam to win. And for the love of fuck turn that stupid +20 damage into +40 so it follows the same damn damage formula as everything else. Seriously who thought 140 damage has a place? Smoke barrage would go a long way especially with T1 builds. The utility of it being a zis/ mortar hybrid could prove enough to garner attention In: COH2 Balance
Thread: The direction of balance. 8 Aug 2020, 14:28 PM Jump back to quoted post8 Aug 2020, 08:31 AMBrick Top I disagree that everything should be fully hard counterable without doctrines. After all the game is designed that loads of stuff is OP when used correctly in the correct circumstances. If everything is counterable stock, that frees people to brainlessly pick whatever is the most OP commander. When you pick a commander, you can help to force enemy to need to try counter what you are doing, often with their commander choice, this is an important mechanic which adds loads of depth of thinking and strats. Its how the vanilla game was designed with Ost / Soviet... I didn't say hard countered, i said manage to face. And you are looking in the right direction but at the wrong thing. You say if core armies have everything they need people will pick OP commanders. My thinking is that if core armies can deal with everything there will be no OP commanders because they can be isolated and fixed without worry of how it's going to ruin to core army. Commanders should be a way to open up new options and keep things exciting not to Crack fill. If you feel the need to keep a certain commander on your card not because you like it but because you need it the balance has failed us and it's no better than people picking the most OP commander. We should have the freedom to chose what commanders we want without shooting our chance at victory in the foot. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Is the WC 51 overperforming ? 8 Aug 2020, 14:24 PM Jump back to quoted post8 Aug 2020, 10:05 AMachpawel The unit is luckily pretty fragile. Still it is just too potent for its cost. Its cost being 200mp and having no gun or 200mp and 45mu to have a gun right? Or are we talking about the abilities specifically? In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Is the WC 51 overperforming ? 7 Aug 2020, 18:25 PM Jump back to quoted post7 Aug 2020, 09:50 AMHannibal Not that I disagree with your point, but maybe check that math again because you switched numbers. 45 mun is 60 MP in that conversion making the WC51 260 MP. We can also use other (rough) conversions, such as standard mines killing 2 models maximum (~50-60 MP). This gives an approximate conversion of 1 MP being worth 0,5-0,6 mun. The WC51 is quite a niche unit though. As already said, I don't know if anyone at a semi serious level plays this unit outside of 1v1. Like most of those super light vehicles though, they need their space and they don't get much in team games. But maybe that's a plus for balancing it if we don't have to take care of larger game modes. Yea I definitely swapped the numbers. That's my bad. I don't agree with the mine trade though because mines primarily are as a snare, not mp bleed and the model cap was in lieu of spacing changes. It's not so much a hard ratio as an accidental one. Jump back to quoted post7 Aug 2020, 15:54 PMelchino7 Check the math. While i can't find any source, i remember that Relic valued mp/muni/fuel at a ratio of 1:3:5 It's not that resource conversions work that way, it might had been how xp value or something was assigned. I do recall something along those lines however that was at a different stage of the game when resource conversion was all over. Now that there is but a single way to convert (I don't really count the soviet one since it has other variables and also doesn't include all resources) its easy to calculate by that standard metric. I'd say it's roughly accurate too with mental applications without the conversional math as well. If I use 30mu for a nade and (outside a strategic use of course) don't kill at least 2 models I feel it a waste Anyways. Is the wc51 over performing? Probably. But is it worth less than a kuble with the munitions upgrade? Certainly not. Even with my bad math it was worth more and any metric of resource conversion puts 45mu as worth more than 10mp. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: The direction of balance. 7 Aug 2020, 18:16 PM Jump back to quoted post7 Aug 2020, 07:35 AMHannibal I think this is a good discussion to have. However I feel the next patch should clean up the dirt that has piled up over the patches: Some normalization, fixing text strings, adding missing ones. So much of the game's text and information to the player is misleading at the moment and will confuse new players since it is the only thing that they can cling on to. I assume CoH2 loses quite some potential players to these problems which makes the game worse overall. As far as actual gameplay content goes: I don't know about the state of CoH2 from Relic's or the balance team's side, but 5 patches is a VERY long way to go. By the rate we got them so far, about 1,5 years if not even more. Plus I think doing one faction at a time is the wrong way to go, since it assumes there were no inter-dependency between the factions. A quick and dirty polish patch would actually do a lot I think for the general professionalism of the game. And I hear what you are saying about the isolated faction patches. Perhaps a broader focus on a key component with a minor in a certain faction? I feel like the wide net patches change too much generally to fix things right proper. With many changes going on at the same time it's difficult to properly test it all and things get lost and other things ignored. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Is the WC 51 overperforming ? 7 Aug 2020, 05:59 AM Jump back to quoted post7 Aug 2020, 05:48 AMSumi Valid points except your comparison scale. M4 HE has an AOE of 4 as compared to 2 of 76mm and that is a big ,a very big difference. Now since you mention that 76mm has better at it has a far pen of 165 with HVAP rounds so it is not supposed to penetrate(RNG Stuff) pz4 at max range (40) because the frontal armor of pz4 is 180. So here you have a 76mm which can barely go toe to toe with a 0 vet pz4(vet 2 increased armor) hence concluding it is not that great in AT department and lies in almost the same category as M4A3. Jackons has 60 range 220 pen while the 76 mm has 40 range 165 pen again massive difference without adding the AP rounds of the Jackson. Jackson is a pure AT unit while the 76mm is an average AI unit. This explains that 76mm does not even fill the shoes of any of these units and hence it is not used much. What he's saying is comparing anything to the literal best of both classes means little in the means of comparison. One could say that the Puma has less armour than The JT and less AOE than a Sturmtiger and it would sound equally as stupid because these are as good at those traits as a unit can be. There isn't a usf vehicle with better AT than a Jackson and there isn't a medium tank with better AI than an M4 Sherman so any and all medium tanks will fall into the worse than both of those at their given roles category. Use comparable units not the top of the line. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: SU-85 and SU-767 Aug 2020, 05:54 AM Make t3 cheaper. Put T70 behind 7 man sidetech so that M5 and SU76 come sooner and maybe actually are attractive but also skipping the T70 makes t4 hit a bit sooner. Not like the t34 with its inability to bounce any axis hard AT but the Puma will be overbearing if a bit sooner anyways... . And again to reiterate making the su76", a soviet stug E, is as stupid as stupid ideas come. Let's lump that right in with stock 5 man grens.. In: COH2 Balance