I'm not doubting that they lose, but that the range of which is RNG. there are variables in a real game that offset this balance as well-for example the odds of cons being full HP are lower than that of the volks due to the nature of factional healing differences--this is swung further when volks receive max vet. The superiority of the lava nade range and throw speed) is also a factor in a real game. If cons ha e to move (say from the afformentioned lava nade) their dps suffers greater than stg vols do.
However all that is a tangent. The discussion was based on the 7 man over performing. The fact of the matter volks and cons are more or less balanced until volks get the stg at which point they are undeniably superior in terms of combat. Then many minutes later when cons get their upgrade they themselves get the edge. There is nothing wrong with that.
I can't see how volks having an advantage at every range after their first tech building (where they will also have their flame nade and snare unlocked while cons will have to pay extra for these) is fine but cons flipping that after their final building is an issue when there was half a game between those two points in time where cons were fighting an uphill battle.
I have pointed out countless times why imo VG ST44 upgrade is far from fine and it actually bad. I am pointing out the same thing about 7 men conscripts. |
I have expressed my opinion about the VG ST44 many times and have little to add.
If in your opinion the result are effected by RNG run the test yourself or test the match with friend in "real game" situation and see how many times VG can win the fight. You might be surprised.
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i was referring to the rotation of the gun... afaik it has like 5 degrees arc
I pointed out that problem with angle of the gun and I agree that it should be fixed.
ehh they mostly cost around the same though the stug is pricier... but the stug has a large DPS armor and HP advantage in exchange for 10 range... imo the stug still remains well suited for the role of deleting or denying the lategame massed TD strategy of the allies...the SU-76 however mostly doesnt have a role being overshadowed by the SU-85...
exactly... but those other options arent overperforming (maybe except the zis) soo premise 2 is satisfied...
T-70 is OP most people agree with that and imo SU-85 is OP also.
Once more fixing the angle of the gun will not suddenly make SU-76 extremely popular. The unit is cost efficient. |
hence the term similar role... both units are tank destroyers at their core but one unit is not used because it is simply not efficient...
1. rotation
2. killed in 3 shots
3. outshone by the T-70
4. not really needed since the SU-85 kills heavy tanks while the zis can work as a stopgap
Number 3 and 4 have nothing to with unit itself.
Rotation values are 32/40 when stug has 28/33.6 and JP IV has 20/24 so it better than other casemates.
That leaves 400 HP vs 560 of Stug III which again is not that bad considering cost and tech cost.
As pointed the unit is cost efficient as is and it not used because other option are simply better. |
Sorry now... Why shouldn't vet 3 7 man cons behind cover beat vet 5 volks with stgs behind cover?
Not without losing a single entity as they did in one of the tests. May issue is not that they won but the margin with which they won.
Vip you, like me, are always advocating for a return of preferred ranges. Rifles are long range, stgs are not.
That would be true if ST44 where actually designed as an assault rifle. St 44 volks use are closer to G43 and their long range DPS is about equal with K98.
In other words you have VG which was designed to fight long range (they would lose regardless if they had St44 or not) and a conscripts who where designed to fight mid to far and conscripts win easily (as far as I have tested).
They also won in some close range fights
You are not usually one to demand purposefully one side tests, and you know full well the stg brings other advantages such as dps on the move, centralized DPS and a fuck lot more time to generate value. What's more, vet 3 (and 7 man) cons are explicitly supposed to be durable. Coupled with cover... No shit they are tough to dig out with small arms of any sort. That's their purpose. We could compare Vetted cons and Vetted volks ability to self heal outside of combat if we would like another one sided comparison.
I suggest you do what ever test you think are relevant and see what happens because I for one was surprised we the test I did.
As for the timing of 7 man, it can be rushed, at great cost to the soviet player and GREATLY inflating the cost of cons (as it's 3 manpower and fuel upgrades that ONLY effect conscripts the resources paid can directly be applied and divided across the number of conscripts) but at any rate, as it's an opportunity "bonus" I hardly count that timing as standard. . It's like arguing the timing of obers if the okw player builds med, doesn't buy flak, or medics and rushes schwere. Yes it's possible but it's not the norm.
And if you WOULD like to consider the rushed t3 version as the timing to go off of you should also make note of the inflated cost associated with it- rushing it means it still comes much later than gren lmgs, volks stgs and fussie g43s as well as WFA allies weapon racks while also costing much more in both required teching costs AND extra side teching costs. The upgrade is effective because it's expensive in both resources and time.
In regards to ostroppen lmg hitting later... Congrats? I hardly count doctrinal supplementary infantry when discussing mainline infantry but I guess it does come later. Not sure what you want from me here.... And even then, you often comment on how large squads shouldn't have lmg because it ends up being very effecient due to DPS concentration. Being able to knock off half a squad and barely impact their output is a huge boom and certainly shouldnt be exceptional on a squad as cheap and peripheral as ostroppen.
I don't want to argue Symantecs with you as you know exactly what I meant saying cons 7 man comes the absolute latest of all upgrades. The timing/ cost efficient levels matter on mainline when you consider the enemy got "theirs" a long while ago and has been generating increased value for some time.
I will not even go into this argument (about latest) because it has been blown out of proportion for no good reason.
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And I'll ask the same question I have been asking the whole time, what is the relevance of this test? How does a max range fight in cover tell us anything about the upgrades?
One of them is designed to be used in cover, the other is a midrange upgrade that makes them better at assaulting. What is the point of testing them in a scenario that already favors one of the upgrades?
Have I not made it clear why I'm not doing the test? Again, the specific test (NOT tests in general) seems completely pointless
Do what ever test you see appropriate. |
it kinda does if either premises are met... say the unspammed unit is U and the used/efficient unit is E
1. no unit E exists to fill the exact same role as unit U.. yet U is still not used because it is immensely cost inefficient to use
2. unit E is considered balanced while U fills a relatively similar role to E however gets eclipsed by the superior unit
in the case of the SU-76 the second premise is true since the SU-85 is considered mostly balanced (at least being the most balanced of the heavy tank destroyers) while the SU-76 fills a similar role but doesnt have much going for it so it gets eclipsed...
Su-85 and SU-76 do not fill the same role.
Su-85 can counter all vehicles. SU-76 is a medium TD with added utility of barrage.
This theoretical debate is fine but you have not yet identified a single problem with SU-76.
(one of the few problem the units has is its cone of fire.) |
I never said anything close to I don't like cheatmods. I could not have more clearly been talking about your specific scenario that you created. And I said you were focusing too much on the tests, not enough on in-game performance
That is not even close to saying cheatmods are bad. As I have said I played with them and against them in automatch ever since they were added. So has most of the community
Let me clarify because this debate is counter productive. When I tested conscripts vs VG in cheat mode I was actually surprised with result.
The performance was not what expected and in one of the test the Conscripts even managed to beat (7/vet3/cover) the VG (ST44/vet5/cover) without losing a single entity.
I have played the game also and I did not expect such results.
You want to test yourself go ahead and do it, you do not want to test do not, it is fine by me. |
Once again it is not a simple fact. In the context of actual gameplay, in which people use feasible build orders and don't just purchase the bare minimum required to tech up, both upgrades are similarly late and could arrive after one another depending on those choices. It's simple if you turn the entire game into a math equation, but that's not what the game is
From the very beginning I have been asking you to point out what relevance those claims even have to the balance of the upgrade. None of the examples you gave are upgrades for mainlins, two of them are doctrinal, and passive bonuses =/= an upgrade
An opinion on how conscripts vs volks perform in a scenario that never actually occurs in a real game? What is the point of your scenario? Again what relevance does it have to the question? You are focusing too much on the tests in a vacuum, that's literally my whole point...
If you do not like cheat mode tests, I suggest you test with friend of yours Vet 3 conscripts vs vet 5 VGS. |
People generally flock to artillery because most maps are overcrowded and laney and tend to favour the defender digging in with a wall of AT, i.e. the perfect scenario for howitzers and rocket artillery and the worst scenario for any regular tank. Blaming the effectiveness of TDs for that is rather far-fetched, because bigger maps like Steppes or General Mud generally see mass tank engagements instead of artillery even though said maps are great for TDs.
Depends on the mode.
In 3vs3 you might see tank fights in open map, in 4vs4 it very probable that you will see artillery play. |