Profile of Vipper

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If you want to take part in this debate just start by responding to simple question, in your opinion do Pathfinder and I&R Pathfinder gain veterancy at the same rate as other units or faster/slower?

How the game was balanced 5 years ago is very different from how it is today. Originally reinforce cost was tied directly to the purchase cost of the unit. That model was dropped for the better. I see no reason why veterency needs to be tied only to cost. You can point out this outdated system all you like though, thats your right.


Not that its saying much but pathfinders do have better vet than pioneers and their vet is "powerful" in terms of utility but weak in terms of combat stats. It certainly doesn't help that their stock capabilities aren't that good given their cost. Pioneers aren't an easy unit to vet given their specific weapon characteristics, and penals just have high(though justified) vet requirements. I dont think there's a problem with them vetting faster than these two examples.


I&R pathfinders are a superior unit objectively to standard pathfinders. Their cost and vet could both be slightly increased.
Standard Pathfinder vet doesn't really need to be touched.

I would argue they vet faster than the majority of units not just those two.

So similar priced units from two different factions with similarly priced AT upgrades killed similar medium battle tanks at a similar rate. Are you arguing that Penals are being over buffed because they perform similarly to PF?

1) PTRS Penal a stock are 300 manpower infatry with 70 munition upgrade.
2) AT PF is a doctrinal 270 manpower infatry with 100 munition upgrade.
3) T-34/76 is tank with 300/90 cost
4) PzIV is tank with 350/100 cost

If those two infantries where equally good at killing those tanks (and I am not saying that they are) one would have to come the conclusion that Penal are most cost efficient since for lower price (taking account the MU cost) they can counter a more expensive tanks.

But the main differences, lies elsewhere:
Penal start with full AI and can downgrade their AI if they need to use AT
PF start weak and have invest in tech and mu to get good AI or invest in tech and MU to get AT and have extremely low AI

I think it's fair to nerf the AI of PTRS Penals a little in exchange for them actually working as an AT squad now. In most game scenarios PTRS Penals are going to take the place of AT Guns as non-TD AT since most players aren't going to side tech to T2 unless this patch drastically shifts the meta- so PTRS Penals need to actually work as AT Units if they/T1 are ever going to actually be used. I don't see why they shouldn't function similarly to their closest Axis counterparts of shreked up PGs or Fusies. In that vein I think we can consider removing the AT satchel or giving Penals a weaker "Target Tread" type ability to replace it. After all PGs and Fusies don't have snares and Axis is in same boat of having to build mainline infantry for snares... I also think it would be nice if PTRS Penals and Tank Hunter Conscripts were somewhat differentiated

Then we agree. Then the AI buff PTRS gets makes little sense.

But the real questions is why should Penal be able to do all that in the first place?

If T1 need an AT units make one available (either a new AT squad or an ATG).

If Penals are meant to do everything than designed as PF where they have to choose if they are going to be AI or AT instead of a unit that start with full AI and can then become AT if needed.

There's simply too much overlap in USF's roster for any meaningful/healthy swaps. Making the Calliope stock would likely mean a doctrinal Scott is never used/needed again. Making it like a (doctrinal) mini Brummbar would heavily overlap with the 105mm Sherman. An armored and highly mobile medium barrage vehicle is actually the most unique role I could think of.

Then simply make some of the these option (mortar/pak/Scott/HE Sherman/Major barrage) doctrinal.
Or
accept that some of the unit will not see much action.

We do not agree. I feel their xp is fine given their current stock combat capability to cost ratio.

For a dedicated combat infantry squad of ~290mp like penals, the exp value would be way too low. But for the combat capability of the pathfinders given their cost, I'm ok with it.

Then I have to point out:
ΧP value of unit was original tied to the cost of unit and not its DPS

In game the Pathfinder gain veterancy way faster the pioneer and Penals and get access to powerful vet bonuses. Probably the unit gain veterancy faster than any other unit.

I also have to point out that apart from the combat performance both Pathfinders also have bring utility.

And what is your opinion about I&R Pathfinder that come with 3 paras carbine and one scoped. Because they have the same XP value?