Profile of Vipper

Trading Vet 3 Acc for Received Accuracy and slightly reducing their reinforce cost in the late game is going to put Penals over the edge vs. Axis mainline inf?

Changes are listed in Opening post in the spoiler and include many other thing like faste build T1 to 3 PTRS with lower ready aim time.

I mean what do you think we should do? Add something like Tank Hunter Partisans to T1 and keep Penals as they are minus PTRS package?

It does not matter what I think that should be done, the questions is weather a unit that is expected to do everything is good design or not.
(Imo it a very bad design especially for faction with so many doctrinal options.)

If it is a good design let find way to improve the solution. If it is not lets changes the design instead of putting even more effort in bad design and ending up breaking more things in the process.

Adding an AT infatry is one solution that might work there are more.

There is already a suggestion from GiaA and even a couple from elchino7 like making T1 optional or adding the M-42.

Penals are just an end result of legacy Soviet teching design, we can go in circles all day talking about game design and past balance decisions but at the end of the day this patch is about improving core armies and meta problems.

I agree that talking history is of little help especially if it ancient history about thing that have little relevance to current state.

As long as Penals are made a less obviously bad choice to full conscript builds without making them OP then that should be enough for this patch.

One of the problem is thou that Penal have been in the same state for years and yet they went from dominating the meta and now they slowly falling out a favor. So the solution does not actually lay in buffing the Penals since Grenadier and VG are at there limit and ready to fall apart.

Unless you want to argue that late game utility buffs or PTRS changes push Penals into OP territory or that your changes achieve a better result in helping Penals function as a non-doc unit then we should stick to talking about the proposed changes because I doubt the balance team has the appetite to redesign Soviet teching just to solve the T1 or T2 only problem just to have "better game design"

Well the problem is that "band aid" approach applied so far does not work, so imo one should either
solve the problem or not touch it at all.

There are many different solution one can choose from.

If T1 need an AT infatry/or AT Solution then T1 should get a proper AT Vehicle infatry (with proper cost/vet bonuses/abilities timing)and not chameleon that is push and twisted to fit every role out ther. That is simply a "lazy" solution that in end create allot more problem that it solves.

There have been endless thread about Penals over the last 4 years and imo the majority of them say the same thing: Penal are simply badly designed trying to cover to many roles at the same time.

They are AT squad, what is the point of compare AI ?

The Raid section can only equip 1 PIAT
And a raid section with a PIAT will simply not cost effective in both AI and AT. And why go for 4 raid section with piat when a pair of sapper can carry the same amount of firepower + snare at much cheaper in both MP and MU?

Blobbing 4 raid section with Piat wont provide enough of AT, they dont have snare and dont sprint in combat so no way to chase and finish off. The alpha strike of 4 PIAT will at best scare off a P4 and at the end their AI become lackluster, leaving you with a bunch of squad who cant do anything good.


It is like setup rifle with 1 bar and 1 bazooka, no one do that because it is not effective.

But still, let not go further into this. Since, after all, the upgrade being unhealthy is something we both see.

A blod becomes a bigger problem when it combines both AI and AT is one unit type. I suggested you test in game and we can debate it later.

Any number of IS with PIATs is not an issue.

The "new" raid IS have no penalties out of cover...

Much less of an issue compare to 4 pusilier with up to 6 panzerscheck.

4 raid section with piat is simple not coss-effecive.

Still, i dont support the setup.

Any idea what the AI is of 3 AT PF?

In one of the game I tested using 3 Piat Raid IS and 1 extra for healing no weapons I got around 8k damage to infatry and around 200k damage to vehicles.

The stacking should be removed in a quick fix with the Raid package shortly.

Since the Officer designed is not working very well either, why not moving the Officer to T0 , reduce power level to around 260-280 and give him any capping bonus you think it appropriate.