Profile of Stark

Miragefla well describe the issue lying behind Pgrens.

I would also add from my part that the Higher gamemode the smaller inpact on the game grens have. Of course many depends on a map, if it's more open players prefer go more heavily into the light vehicules or simply go grens with lmg upgrade to just "A" move them in a famous tacitcal groups called "blobs".


Worth pointing out that:
1. their reinforcing cost is slighly too big. It's not so noticeable on 1v1 but on 2v2 for example getting even 2 squads of those gives you horrible bleed on MP,
2. require specific tactic which is less effective that simple gren blob, they can't fill the role of mainline infantry,
3. G43 is pointless. STGs are already good on mid range so only point it would make them more distance unit. I would assume that it should make them a long range elite infantry after the upgrade but sadly they aren't,
4. ally infantry has a lot of upgrades (bars, brens, dps, thompsons) to make their infantry more and more effective. Pgrens don't have such a thing. Cost is only 340 MP and there is no way to increase their value expect simple vetUnits like Pgrens should be a elite infantry that

From what i expect from a unit like pgrens is to fill a gap that's left in loosing a squads in mid game to replace looses by more elite units. Sadly pgrens aren't shocktroops and loosing a single model gives you -25% in efficiency on the battlefield,

From what I gather, though, utility and abilities, such as the Infantry Doctrine's PG Training, seem to be the way the go such as their passive when near armor which gives them bonuses or more things to do that isn't just 'More DPS'.

It should be. But would you just move the ability from a german infantry commander for nothing on it's place or would it be something diffrent?

Other thing could be:
- giving ostheer +10 more starting fuel and increase the cost of T1 to +10 fuel. Therefore skipping T1 would be a more temping strat. In effect of early pgrens available, they should probably be tone down and offer them sort of performance upgrade. Also the question is how light vehicule rush would work then though.

Well, IMO some combinations for commander abilities would be too meta or threaten the position of other commanders, for example:

- Tiger + HEAT (Tungsten). This would easily make the Tiger the strongest heavy tank, having the mobility and "low" cost of a Tiger with the damage output of a King Tiger. It can already beat an IS2 quite consistently, so it doesn't really need HEAT. You'd have to replace HEAT with Combined Arms or another ability in this case.

- Tiger + Assault Grenadiers. These are arguably already the most prominent abilities on mechanized assault, so they shouldn't both be on a new commander to prevent one commander outshining the other. Balance team would have to choose one or the other.

- Radio Intelligence + Ostheer. I could be wrong, but I think this would be far stronger for Ostheer than Soviets. Ostheer always has all counter options available to them, because of their linear tech. These counters also tend to be the best. Soviets also don't get elite infantry with radio intelligence doctrines (unless you count commissar), which makes it hard for them to compete in the infantry department. Ostheer infantry tends to be effective enough regardless of doctrines.

Reworking the Tiger Ace in the OKW commander would seem the best inbetween option to me, if the balance team also wants to rework assault grenadiers and wants to use the unused Tungsten voicelines (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtDNG3nJPL8&t=2m2s).

Well,i think TigerAce is in dire need of a rework and it fits to the theme of the doctrine. And keep in mind that the Ace doesnt have to get the aura buff. It was just a suggestion. Thereby Wehrmacht and OKW commanders should be designed independently.
HEAT rounds and "Extra Equipment" are abilities that could fit very well.
But lets wait and see in which direction the mod team wants to go.

Tiger Ace must be revamp. Currently it's horrible stage. Many people voted on Smartie idea becouse of that - including me. I'm not saying that commander shouldn't get any twicks or changes but hell, if you wanna remove Tiger Ace, radio intel and combine arms you make totally diffrent commander.

- Assualt grens already are in the same commander with a Tiger and they aren't overperforming what's so ever, it's not even meta.

- Colision HEAT round with Tiger wasn't exist in the main concept. HEAT is your idea and people didn't vote for it. Remember that Tiger has priority in the commander design.

Sorry DerbyHat but you cannot just make your own abilities for the new ostheer commander and simply removed the original ideas becouse they colide with yours. That's just silly.

The OKW Grand Offensive commander is pretty ridiculous. It will make tanks easily able to counter tank destroyers, their hard counter. I can only imagine the giant cheese of blitzkrieging, HEAT shell shooting, aura buffed heavy tanks rushing allied armor.

Thus, my suggestions are:
> Remove the blitzkrieg ability from the offensive package. Most tanks already have it as a vet ability anyway.
> Remove the commander aura from Tiger, just a common Tiger is good enough.
> Trade the HEAT shells for the Breakthrough's Assault Artillery or Luftwaffe's Valiant Assault. This will make the doctrine more offensive oriented while keeping the HEAT shells exclusive of the Elite Armor commander (which it should be, since it's such a strong ability).

Edit:
@Ethereal Dragon: About Tiger Ace
I know that my suggested Tiger Ace is probably too strong (it is). I just wanted to lay the ground for a constructive discussion and if i look at your post i would say it paid off Really good suggestions, im really looking forward to the official feedback process. If guys like yourself, Lago, Stark and others will continue to give this kind of feedback Wehrmacht players will get a relly good commander.

Keep in mind that commanders listed above are barely a sketch of what we can get. So the main product you will get can be tooootally diffrent that what is proposed. We, as a community, decided in what direction of the new commander and on what should be focusing on but there is nowhere written than Kpen's or Smarties proposal are final.

And i can ensure that there is no way that we will get HEAT round, breakthrough and commandTiger with aura in same commander.

Be patience and let's just wait. Before the release we will get mod to test all commanders

A number of Suggested Changes:
Replace Ostwind with Stug so that Ostheer get an indirect fire support unit in T3. Move Ostwind to T4 and buff so that it can be used to support Panthers. Make Brumbar doctrinal similar to KV-2 maybe (it was superior). These solution will fix a number of units and problem.

Actually imo the game would be at good spot by now if Relic did not keep redesigning factions every 6 months...

Legit

Diffrent vet 1 ability is a good idea though. Like the suppression ability. This with better AA capabilities and let's just see how it goes

Best thing is okw somehow have two non doc strong tank destroyers any reason whats going on here? I know before jagpazer was in t1 but now its not make sense. Maybe japanzer should be buffed and doctrinal or better idea panther should be doctinal we have already one faction with panther so why need two? Anyway sorry for offtopic i think firefly is good maybe only need slight fuel decrease or speed buff.

OKW --- UKF

JP4 ---> FireFly
Panther ---> COMET

There is acually symetrical design and both factions have their counterparts. Sorry but your argument is valid. Plz don't sugest removing basic units from the game, factions alraedy has very small number of units. Performance of those units is diffrent topic though.