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russian armor

Wehr weak penetration

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15 Oct 2019, 19:01 PM
#21
avatar of Hannibal
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jump backJump back to quoted post15 Oct 2019, 18:44 PMVipper

That is rather inaccurate:
PzIV Penetration near 125 Penetration mid 115 Penetration far 110
Sherman Penetration near 140 Penetration mid 130 Penetration far 120
Cromwell Penetration near 135 Penetration mid 120 Penetration far 105
T-34/76 Penetration near 120 Penetration mid 100 Penetration far 80

(Things get even worse when it comes to penetration if one compares PzIV H to allied premiums.)

I most cases allied mediums have better penetration.


My Sherman pen goes 140/120/100.
But apart from that, the raw pen value is pretty misleading. We should compare pen chances against a certain target, for example against other stock mediums.
OST P4 has ~70% pen chance against Sherman/Cromwell at range 20, it's 65% the other way around. The bigger the range, the better the P4s perform, at lower ranges P4 and Sherman/Cromwell become pretty much similar (all calculated with "my" penetration stats of Sherman).
This system sounds alright considering the slightly lower price for Sherman/Cromwell.
15 Oct 2019, 19:12 PM
#22
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4474


Wehr has great tools as well. The pak is great, stugs perform very well at their role, panthers are fantastic, p4 has more pen than other mediums. Brumbar is even reliable at dealing damage due to deflection damage. There are always Shreks too which are guaranteed to pen all allied core armour except comet/ church.

And my point about armour stands as well. Panther/p4/brumbar all get over 200 armour making them extremely durable against non hard counters. Hard counters are by definition very effective at their jobs
if it has cross it's better if has star it's worse :snfPeter::snfPeter:
15 Oct 2019, 19:13 PM
#23
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4474



My Sherman pen goes 140/120/100.
But apart from that, the raw pen value is pretty misleading. We should compare pen chances against a certain target, for example against other stock mediums.
OST P4 has ~70% pen chance against Sherman/Cromwell at range 20, it's 65% the other way around. The bigger the range, the better the P4s perform, at lower ranges P4 and Sherman/Cromwell become pretty much similar (all calculated with "my" penetration stats of Sherman).
This system sounds alright considering the slightly lower price for Sherman/Cromwell.
no we shouldnt we are not comparing medium tanks, we are taking down the biased claim form darkarmadillo that p4 has more pen than other medium

take in the context some time
15 Oct 2019, 19:22 PM
#24
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1

we are taking down the biased claim form darkarmadillo that p4 has more pen than other medium


P4 has better far penetration than all 3 allied mediums, while also having better armor, and armor buff with vet. So it's pen chances against allied mediums are indeed better

Do you even have a point you're trying to argue here? You agree with OP that panther and pak need penetration buffs? Because that's the topic here, it's not whatever you decide is the topic....
15 Oct 2019, 19:34 PM
#25
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Oct 2019, 14:59 PMmrgame2
Compare to Allies 60TD

FF: 260/240/210/Tulips/240 damages/0.55 moving accuracy
SU85: 240/230/220, vet to 312/299/286 with free self-spottting
Jackson: 260/240/220, vet to 338/312/286 and the best AP ammo 300/280/250 and vet 390/364/325. 0.75 moving accuracy!

They goes up against Brumar, Panther and Tiger..
Brumbar front/side armor 260, vet 338
Panther front/side armor 260, vet 286
Tiger front/side armor: 300

Hmmm


You forgot to mention allied ATGs since you mentioned PAK, any reason for that?
15 Oct 2019, 19:40 PM
#26
avatar of Hannibal
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no we shouldnt we are not comparing medium tanks, we are taking down the biased claim form darkarmadillo that p4 has more pen than other medium

take in the context some time

You could understand it both ways: as pen chance or as raw pen value. First thing makes more sense in the context of this thread and is also the only one worth arguing about. If he meant it the second way it did not make sense in the first place.
Vaz
15 Oct 2019, 20:05 PM
#27
avatar of Vaz

Posts: 1158

I honestly couldn't give a shit what the axis penetration values are as a whole. The weapons they have for engaging in armored combat are all effective. They don't bounce. There are some really rare bounces from pIV, but it's not common enough for me to risk it with a pIV. As far as I'm concerned, there is no difference between the performance of a pak40 at penetration value 220 or 20000. Same shit to me, the round is going in. I'm playing mainly USF, so the only thing that could possibly bounce a pak40 is the one doctrinal heavy tank I never use, so I really don't care. Boost it to a million, same difference.
15 Oct 2019, 20:45 PM
#28
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4474



P4 has better far penetration than all 3 allied mediums, while also having better armor, and armor buff with vet. So it's pen chances against allied mediums are indeed better

Do you even have a point you're trying to argue here? You agree with OP that panther and pak need penetration buffs? Because that's the topic here, it's not whatever you decide is the topic....
i would prefer heat shell for stug with vet 1
15 Oct 2019, 21:16 PM
#29
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1



My Sherman pen goes 140/120/100.
...

Thanks for correction, not sure how it happened since I copied the values.
15 Oct 2019, 22:04 PM
#30
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1


...
OST P4 has ~70% pen chance against Sherman/Cromwell at range 20, it's 65% the other way around. The bigger the range, the better the P4s perform, at lower ranges P4 and Sherman/Cromwell become pretty much similar (all calculated with "my" penetration stats of Sherman).
...

Now try to do similar calculations at rear/side armor and you will that PzIV loses any advantage that does not require to flank the enemy vehicle since rear hit can occur when moving parallel.

But that is not the problem.

...
We should compare pen chances against a certain target, for example against other stock mediums.
...

The problem is not PzIV performance vs other mediums but the fact the allies have little reason to built mediums in the first place.

To make thing even worse most of the allied TDs have chance near 100% to hit and penetrate the PzIV at range 60, completely shutting it down.

Finally the PzIV is nearly obsolete once allied premium, heavies and super heavier appear.
15 Oct 2019, 22:24 PM
#31
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Oct 2019, 22:04 PMVipper


Finally the PzIV is nearly obsolete once allied premium, heavies and super heavier appear.


How is this unique to Ost p4? Panther does the same thing to allied mediums, and its available stock to both axis factions
15 Oct 2019, 23:09 PM
#32
avatar of Grim

Posts: 1093

This thread is going to go well.




15 Oct 2019, 23:21 PM
#33
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1



How is this unique to Ost p4? Panther does the same thing to allied mediums, and its available stock to both axis factions

1) Ostheer panther has high tech and high cost
2) Panther has little AI and can be countered by ATGs or TDs or even swarmed by mediums
3) Panther has very low rear armor and can be penetrated by mediums even when vet 2
4) Allied mediums have extra utility like smoke rounds, ram, extended vision, HE rounds
5) Allied premium, heavies and super heavies can put fight vs a Panther (they might not be to 1v1 but they can damage it and fight when supported)
6) As I have pointed allies have little reason to built medium since they can do with up-gunned infatry and TDs
7) You missed my point the part you quoted I mentioned "allied premium, heavies and super heavier appear" Panther is not any of those vehicles.

PzIV H for instance that is premium for Ostheer does not make allied mediums obsolete.

16 Oct 2019, 00:40 AM
#34
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Oct 2019, 23:21 PMVipper

1) Ostheer panther has high tech and high cost
2) Panther has little AI and can be countered by ATGs or TDs or even swarmed by mediums
3) Panther has very low rear armor and can be penetrated by mediums even when vet 2
4) Allied mediums have extra utility like smoke rounds, ram, extended vision, HE rounds
5) Allied premium, heavies and super heavies can put fight vs a Panther (they might not be to 1v1 but they can damage it and fight when supported)
6) As I have pointed allies have little reason to built medium since they can do with up-gunned infatry and TDs
7) You missed my point the part you quoted I mentioned "allied premium, heavies and super heavier appear" Panther is not any of those vehicles.

PzIV H for instance that is premium for Ostheer does not make allied mediums obsolete.



1) all allied premiums also require the highest level of tech
2) which allied premium medium will stand against AT guns and TDs? or multiple mediums for that matter
3)again, which allied premium medium is able to drive in backwayrds and deflect rounds? some cant even deflect rounds FRONTALLY
4) and the panther has 50 range. ill trade ram on my 85 for 50 range....
6) put up a fight but eventually lose. the panther has mobility, durability and range but most of all it has accessibility. you CANNOT play as the axis without having athe option to build a panther.
7) hardly obsolete. its still got great AI and armour and will keep allied mediums from maurading. and its AI isnt anything underwhelming either.
16 Oct 2019, 01:04 AM
#35
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4928

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Oct 2019, 23:21 PMVipper
1) Ostheer panther has high tech and high cost
But they get access to an option that other factions do not. Do you not think Soviets wouldn't go for T-34-85's if they could tech for them?

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Oct 2019, 23:21 PMVipper
3) Panther has very low rear armor and can be penetrated by mediums even when vet 2
Too bad it has superior mobility so it's much harder for the slower blitz-less allied tanks to get behind it. If you have it supported at all, there is no excuse for taking rear armor hits.

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Oct 2019, 23:21 PMVipper
4) Allied mediums have extra utility like smoke rounds, ram, extended vision, HE rounds
Ram is an ability that hurts more than it helps, so the poor T-34-76 is left with weak stats and nothing to show for it.

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Oct 2019, 23:21 PMVipper
6) As I have pointed allies have little reason to built medium since they can do with up-gunned infatry and TDs
And mediums will be hard-countered by Panthers or larger, forcing Allies to always plan for the Panther.
16 Oct 2019, 01:24 AM
#36
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Oct 2019, 23:21 PMVipper

7) You missed my point the part you quoted I mentioned "allied premium, heavies and super heavier appear" Panther is not any of those vehicles.


Didn't miss your point at all. You said allied doctrinal tanks that were MUCH more expensive made p4 obselete (premiums, heavies, super heavies). I'm pointing out that both axis factions have stock tanks capable of doing the same

Why are you pointing out that the panther costs more and takes longer to tech to when you're comparing ost p4 performance to premiums, heavies, and super heavies? The same applies

16 Oct 2019, 03:07 AM
#37
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1



Didn't miss your point at all. You said allied doctrinal tanks that were MUCH more expensive made p4 obselete (premiums, heavies, super heavies). I'm pointing out that both axis factions have stock tanks capable of doing the same

Why are you pointing out that the panther costs more and takes longer to tech to when you're comparing ost p4 performance to premiums, heavies, and super heavies? The same applies


Now check the cost difference between a T-34/85 with a PzIV and a Sherman with a Panther. Actually if one's opponent is spamming allied mediums making Panther is not the best response, one would probably do better making stugs or PzIVs.

And you are still missing the point, Panther is quite irrelevant to the comparison since it is a TD hybrid and not a tank. If you want to compare Panther with something you need to compare it with FF/SU-85/M36.

These TDs are allot more cost efficient than Panther vs mediums since they can hit and penetrate PzIV with a chance close to 100% even from range 60, while costing less to built, to tech and pop.

Bottom line is that PzIV is not a very good investment because it has a high cost for the window of opportunity it has. Which has become smaller with the changes to Super heavies.
16 Oct 2019, 04:29 AM
#38
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1793

Yes vipper wrote down in a better expression than i did.

The objective of this thread is to highlight wehr does not have enough penetrations now. Landscape has changed for what was taken for granted

Panther vet buff
Pak40 sight buff
P4 pen buff
Stug twp replacement

These ideas are thrown out for considering.
16 Oct 2019, 04:36 AM
#39
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4928

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Oct 2019, 03:07 AMVipper
Now check the cost difference between a T-34/85 with a PzIV and a Sherman with a Panther. Actually if one's opponent is spamming allied mediums making Panther is not the best response, one would probably do better making stugs or PzIVs.


Except the gap between a Panzer IV and a T-34-85 is much smaller than the gap between a Sherman and Panther. Heck, I think the the gap between the T-34-85 and Panther might be larger than the one between the Panzer IV and the T-34-85, after all the Panzer IV will consistently penetrate the T-34-85. Now add in an OKW Panzer IV and I think you're on about equal footing with a T-34-85, as the OKW Panzer IV's higher armor (234) will protect it more than the T-34-85's normal armor (160).
16 Oct 2019, 04:44 AM
#40
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1



Except the gap between a Panzer IV and a T-34-85 is much smaller than the gap between a Sherman and Panther. Heck, I think the the gap between the T-34-85 and Panther might be larger than the one between the Panzer IV and the T-34-85, after all the Panzer IV will consistently penetrate the T-34-85. Now add in an OKW Panzer IV and I think you're on about equal footing with a T-34-85, as the OKW Panzer IV's higher armor (234) will protect it more than the T-34-85's normal armor (160).

And you still comparing a main battle tank like the T-34/85 with a TD the Panther.

As for T-34/85 vs Panzer H, T-34/85 with a cost of 380/130 is more cost efficient than the PzIV H at 380/140 since the extra HP are superior to the extra armor.
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