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russian armor

Can blobing be addressed directly

15 Oct 2019, 02:28 AM
#21
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1156

Yes as some said above, allies are stronger blobbers. Allies vs Wehr, win early blob wars and transition faster to their better LT and Medtanks. G43 is too expensive to help Wehr equalise blobbing on the move. So if you play allies,you can counter Wehr blobbers much easier. Okw is bit more equal and harder but usf is now more stronger than okw from early game

To me, i believe all mg should be improved, have a better RA against infantry weapon when setup. Especially Wehr is up against 5-7 men units dps.

For Wehr,mg42 is weakest mid-late game against allies blob and need a vet buff.
15 Oct 2019, 06:32 AM
#22
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 2447 | Subs: 5

Punishing bad play is a no no. Blobs are the way the game is SUPPOSED to be played and this is backed up by just about every design and balance decision in the last long while


You're completely ignoring the core problem here, which is that every weapon that is great versus blobs is also going to be (too) great versus a single unit. Demos were nerfed not because of their effectiveness versus blubs, but because they were a cancer to single units, getting wiped all over the map. Same goes for the Sturmtiger, AVRE, etc.

It simply isn't possible to give a weapon high destructible power to punish blobs without also making them overpowered against single units.


The only thing (imo) that could be done to decrease the effectiveness of blobs is either giving units a Received Accuracy penalty based on how many squads are in close proximity, or to enlarge the effects of Incremental Accuracy on the weapon, so they become noticeably more effective the more squads there are in their firing cone. Only with smart mechanics like this, weapons can be made effective against a blob without making them too powerful in single unit engagements.

But that's something for a CoH3, because CoH2 is too far gone at this point (as in, no more major changes allowed by Relic), it would take a hell of a lot of trying and testing, and I'm not sure if the engine could even support it.
15 Oct 2019, 07:06 AM
#23
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 652

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Oct 2019, 02:28 AMmrgame2
Yes as some said above, allies are stronger blobbers. Allies vs Wehr, win early blob wars and transition faster to their better LT and Medtanks. G43 is too expensive to help Wehr equalise blobbing on the move. So if you play allies,you can counter Wehr blobbers much easier. Okw is bit more equal and harder but usf is now more stronger than okw from early game

To me, i believe all mg should be improved, have a better RA against infantry weapon when setup. Especially Wehr is up against 5-7 men units dps.

For Wehr,mg42 is weakest mid-late game against allies blob and need a vet buff.


I dony think its the case that ost has it worst again... tgis is getting tyersome.

I agree with you on recc acc buff for all mg,s. But with the ost always up i dont agree.

Bigger squads are supressed earlier, and wich side has bigger squads mostly? Mg42,s suppression and aoe supression is not bad at all.

You need a bigger blob to force of or kill an mg 42 frontally then a maxim or vickers, with a maxim 2 okw squads is enough. You can keep then directly next to eachother in my experience on the recieving end.
Allies being better blobbers, but in ost,s case they can also shut a blob down easier. Looks pretty nicely asymetricly balanced to me.

And allies having better mediums!? Surely you dont mean the non doc ones?
15 Oct 2019, 11:05 AM
#24
avatar of Aradan

Posts: 903

In CoH1 was debuffing aura, when the inf. units were close.
A few percent increase of incoming accuracy.
Ideal for punishing the blob.
15 Oct 2019, 12:00 PM
#25
avatar of Grining Cat

Posts: 61

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Oct 2019, 00:28 AMPereat


EffenNewbie is right - 1v1 and 2v2 with UKF and Soviets.

The most common blobs im seeing are falls, STG44 volks and G43 grens. So basically anything with good moving accuracy.

Mines are not that great on bigger maps and mgs are terrible. Even two squads of bren IS can take an mg head on not to mention okw and long range nades of ost.



-->Mines are great. Believe me. Fallschirmjäger are really expensive. It hurts a lot if you loose models to mines.

-G43 Grenadiers can be outgunned by Infantry sections with brens or conscripts with svt rifles.

-Dhsk machine guns are quite good.

-Any flak halftrack works great against infantry blobs.(Brits and Soviets have one)

-STG44 Volks blob might be the most difficult to counter. Still any elite infantry units should be able to inflict serious losses. (commandos, shocks)
15 Oct 2019, 12:07 PM
#26
avatar of aerafield

Posts: 2232 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Oct 2019, 11:05 AMAradan
In CoH1 was debuffing aura, when the inf. units were close.
A few percent increase of incoming accuracy.
Ideal for punishing the blob.


are you sure this was a thing in coh1? Cuz the brit blobs shredded through everything in this game if you had lieutenant assault and officer artillery strikes.

If someone thinks CoH2 blobs are bad, then go play versus brits in CoH1 lol
15 Oct 2019, 12:20 PM
#27
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15647 | Subs: 7



are you sure this was a thing in coh1? Cuz the brit blobs shredded through everything in this game if you had lieutenant assault and officer artillery strikes.

If someone thinks CoH2 blobs are bad, then go play versus brits in CoH1 lol


PE had it until you got upgrade that made blobs stronger.

Wehr had it for pios after some time as well as they were all you ever needed to win vs brits.
15 Oct 2019, 12:33 PM
#28
avatar of Freestyler1992

Posts: 88

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Oct 2019, 12:20 PMKatitof


PE had it until you got upgrade that made blobs stronger.


This was just hilariously stupid design.
15 Oct 2019, 12:47 PM
#29
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 4258 | Subs: 1



You're completely ignoring the core problem here, which is that every weapon that is great versus blobs is also going to be (too) great versus a single unit. Demos were nerfed not because of their effectiveness versus blubs, but because they were a cancer to single units, getting wiped all over the map. Same goes for the Sturmtiger, AVRE, etc.

It simply isn't possible to give a weapon high destructible power to punish blobs without also making them overpowered against single units.


The only thing (imo) that could be done to decrease the effectiveness of blobs is either giving units a Received Accuracy penalty based on how many squads are in close proximity, or to enlarge the effects of Incremental Accuracy on the weapon, so they become noticeably more effective the more squads there are in their firing cone. Only with smart mechanics like this, weapons can be made effective against a blob without making them too powerful in single unit engagements.

But that's something for a CoH3, because CoH2 is too far gone at this point (as in, no more major changes allowed by Relic), it would take a hell of a lot of trying and testing, and I'm not sure if the engine could even support it.


Capping deaths, debuff or max damage to the point that the blob is effectively destroyed with any support but it's not worth it for a single unit as its over kill. Wide AOE that hurts vs medium aoe that wipes is much better and more directed towards combined arms. Could also have a debuff to these blob punishing units that doesn't outright kill but makes blobs less effective for a bit after being shot. It doesn't have to be all or nothing but the units that used to punish blobs ARE nothing now. Can't remember the last time I saw an AVRE, last time I saw a sturmtiger was when I used it and it was awful its more punishing to use than it is for punishing blobs.

What's more, setting up a trap or spending 180+ fuel to wipe a unit every ~2 min hardly seems uneasonable if it means blobbing is also punished. If wiping 1 squad means you can punish blobs id sooner that than allow blobs free reign assuming there is no other option.

Im not a fan at all of punishing mistakes irreparably, but blobbing is not an mistake and if the proper tools are brought to the table they sure as shit should bleed.
15 Oct 2019, 13:07 PM
#30
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 2855 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Oct 2019, 19:29 PMPereat
Some of the game balance changes have been made with blobing in mind. Could the issue be tackled not by changing unit stats but by adding diminishing-returns on combining groups of the same unit.

My proposition is if possible add an individual aura to each squad (similar to officers, command tanks etc.) that for example give -2% accuracy if there are two units of the same type with overlapping auras, -10% accuracy if there are 3 units of the same type in relatively close proximity and so on.. That would at least help with a-move blobs and encourage combined arms.


How to you do the difference between a blob and your army being repelled to one sector before you're base entry?
With the debuff aura logic you're going to suffer even more of being repelled on a tiny part of the map making your come back harder.

---

As for HMG as blob counter the problem is usually the yellow cover popping out as the game goes. IMO I think HMG mechanism is better in Coh1 than Coh2. HMG in Coh1 are less punishing but overall stronger vs blobs.
15 Oct 2019, 13:58 PM
#31
avatar of SupremeStefan

Posts: 1064



On the other hand the Land Mattress is just awful even though it's also not a stock unit.
It should be non doctrinal and then maybe comet should be doctrinal
15 Oct 2019, 16:10 PM
#32
avatar of EffenNewbie

Posts: 1545



You're completely ignoring the core problem here, which is that every weapon that is great versus blobs is also going to be (too) great versus a single unit. Demos were nerfed not because of their effectiveness versus blubs, but because they were a cancer to single units, getting wiped all over the map. Same goes for the Sturmtiger, AVRE, etc.

It simply isn't possible to give a weapon high destructible power to punish blobs without also making them overpowered against single units.


The only thing (imo) that could be done to decrease the effectiveness of blobs is either giving units a Received Accuracy penalty based on how many squads are in close proximity, or to enlarge the effects of Incremental Accuracy on the weapon, so they become noticeably more effective the more squads there are in their firing cone. Only with smart mechanics like this, weapons can be made effective against a blob without making them too powerful in single unit engagements.

But that's something for a CoH3, because CoH2 is too far gone at this point (as in, no more major changes allowed by Relic), it would take a hell of a lot of trying and testing, and I'm not sure if the engine could even support it.


Couldn't the balance team just fix the Maxim so that it is only a little worse than the MG42? Seems like it would be a lot simpler. Also, remember the OP plays a lot of Soviet so OP has to either get a doctrinal DSHK or wait for a Katy, assuming that they haven't lost before the Katy arrives.
15 Oct 2019, 18:09 PM
#33
avatar of cochosgo

Posts: 298

I'm still wondering why the katy lost its supression.
15 Oct 2019, 22:16 PM
#34
avatar of Pereat

Posts: 55



Couldn't the balance team just fix the Maxim so that it is only a little worse than the MG42? Seems like it would be a lot simpler. Also, remember the OP plays a lot of Soviet so OP has to either get a doctrinal DSHK or wait for a Katy, assuming that they haven't lost before the Katy arrives.


Soviets seem to hold their own a bit better. Its UKF with no light AI vehicles that gets the brunt of it.
16 Oct 2019, 03:32 AM
#35
avatar of porkloin

Posts: 186

Change indirect weapons such as mortars to a larger fixed AOE (say max 10% per model) and call it a day. The real-world use of a mortar is to break up attacks. Give them damage that punishes grouped units hard, but isn't a wipe machine vs individual squads.
16 Oct 2019, 04:39 AM
#36
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2355

It should be non doctrinal and then maybe comet should be doctrinal

you mean, hammer unlocks land matresses and comet becomes doctrinal but also free of tech specialization, therefore you will be able to combine church+comet? No tnx
16 Oct 2019, 06:31 AM
#37
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 2447 | Subs: 5

Couldn't the balance team just fix the Maxim so that it is only a little worse than the MG42? Seems like it would be a lot simpler


Not really. The Maxim needs 6 models to compensate the horrible death loop, but then 6 models makes it extremely durable in the early game. And the big problem is that OKW has nothing to counter HMGs in the early game, except for flanking. This is a big problem on laney team games maps (like Red Ball Express) where they can't really be outmanoeuvred and spamming them shuts down an entire portion of the map rather easily. Ergo, we are pretty reluctant to directly buff the Maxim.
16 Oct 2019, 12:00 PM
#38
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 2540 | Subs: 1


But that's something for a CoH3, because CoH2 is too far gone at this point (as in, no more major changes allowed by Relic), it would take a hell of a lot of trying and testing, and I'm not sure if the engine could even support it.


I desperately hope we see something like that in coh3, assuming we get to see a coh3

MGs shouldn't just suppress blobs, they should rip them to shreads. Some way of allowing that without having MGs melt individual squads would be really awesome
16 Oct 2019, 13:59 PM
#39
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 2447 | Subs: 5

MGs shouldn't just suppress blobs, they should rip them to shreads. Some way of allowing that without having MGs melt individual squads would be really awesome


Not just HMGs, Incremental Accuracy (on the weapon) or a Received Accuracy penalty (on the blobbed squads) would also allow all normal weapons to deal additional damage, to simulate that missed shots would still hit other squads in close proximity. This would help make fighting blobs a bit easier as it would help equalize the pure volume of fire advantage blobs have.

Or most ideally, a CoH3 would be based on a new engine that supports advanced ballistics, that can simulate all small arms bullets so that misses by Rifles/SMGs/ARs/LMGs/HMGs can hit other models in close proximity.
16 Oct 2019, 14:48 PM
#40
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1156



Not just HMGs, Incremental Accuracy (on the weapon) or a Received Accuracy penalty (on the blobbed squads) would also allow all normal weapons to deal additional damage, to simulate that missed shots would still hit other squads in close proximity. This would help make fighting blobs a bit easier as it would help equalize the pure volume of fire advantage blobs have.

Or most ideally, a CoH3 would be based on a new engine that supports advanced ballistics, that can simulate all small arms bullets so that misses by Rifles/SMGs/ARs/LMGs/HMGs can hit other models in close proximity.


Sounds good...but we see so much complains of Coh2 variables, of non-competitive plate, that many Coh2 stats have been moved to standardised numbers or ignored or confused.

And the fact Relic is getting smaller studio. I expect Coh3, if any, will have lesser stats and dumb down, in the name of, to attempt an excuse for competitive casting purposes.

Why make more complex formulas in your engine? Says new Relic head.
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