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russian armor

Penals Redesign

Should be penals redesigned for sake of balance and gameplay?
Option Distribution Votes
36%
64%
Total votes: 25
Vote VOTE! Vote ABSTAIN
9 Oct 2019, 11:55 AM
#1
avatar of Maret

Posts: 530

Good day comrades!

Only one faction in COH2 have 2 stock mainline infantry units: Soviets. After WFA, nerf maxims and cons, we've got situation when SU to become playable faction got strong "WFA level" mainline infantry. And penals becomes this uhit. They are passed through many changes and tweaks. But now, i think, SU must get, like other nations, only 1 mainline infantry unit - cons. All possible soilutions about penals, IMHO, should get support from T1, not any sorts of mainline infantry.

I think there are few options:

1. Redesign penals
2. Replace penals by other unit

Redesign

Penals should, IMHO, become unit closer to Pgrens in terms of design (closer to support unit, not mainline infantry). Close combat upgrade and dedicated AT upgrade.

Starting as 4 mens with 2 ppsh and 2 svt, 280 MP. Could get next upgrades:
1. Close-combat package (60 muni): +1 ppsh and flamethrower with regular satchel, will get +1 man with SVT when T4 is deployed or Mobile Reserve purchased in T3, get molotovs from molotov upgrade.
2. AT-package (75 muni): get 3 PTRS rifles (1 ppsh is still remain), ability Like brit sniper have (shot to weak points), ability like guards have (bonus to sight and range, but becomes unmoved). Get at-satchel from At-nade upgrade. Will get +1 man with mosin when T4 is deployed or Mobile Reserve purchased in T3.

Replace

The most hardest way, in my opinion. If T1 don't have any "main" unit, it will become dead tech structure. Only fews will be build T1 to get sniper and M3.

Possible units:
1. Officer - strong unit, limited to 1 squad, cost 360 MP. 5 mens - 2 ppsh, 2 mosins and 1 nagan. With vet all squad get ppsh (officer still have nagan).
- Frag grenade
- "Commander spirit" - passive aura, decrease time of recharge abilities to units. CE build faster buildings and barbwire with mines.
- "Inspire" - work like the same ability fom kv-8
- "Coordinated barrage" - all zis-guns and su-76 start to barrage in choosed area.
- "Overwatch" - significantly decrease time of production and time of reinforce when activated in main base sector. Need some time to work on full speed.






9 Oct 2019, 14:26 PM
#2
avatar of Grim

Posts: 728

This seems like a very convoluted way to 'balance' a unit which is 300mp and requires T1.

Conscripts would fare better from something like this perhaps?
9 Oct 2019, 14:42 PM
#3
avatar of Crecer13

Posts: 1453 | Subs: 3

Redesign of Penalties... again, which number is this topic? And what for the six years of the existence of the game? Why for the Grenadiers and Panzer Grenadiers does not pass such a topic every week? The answer is simple and obvious - damn Penalties were always superfluous. And I'm already tired of repeating such an obvious thing. There are such weekly topics about the redesign of Fines just confirm this fact. Penalties are superfluous, remove Penalties.

We should talk about the global redesign of the Soviet infantry, and not about how to fix an unnecessary unit.
9 Oct 2019, 14:43 PM
#4
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 464

You can’t change penals without redesigning the entire faction. The way to go imo is to follow a USF approach:

T0: Combat engineers, Conscripts
T1: Dshka, M3A1, Penals
T2: Zis-3, Mortar, Sniper
T3: M5, T70, SU76
T4: T34/76, SU85, Katyusha

Get rid of 6 man teams and keep all soviet support teams at 5 men. Conscripts stay as 6 men and buffed, with stock SVT package upgrade for 4 SVTs. AT nade, Molotov and SVT package unlock into a single sidetech. Penals become a 240mp unit holding 6 conscript mosins with satchel and a flamethrower upgrade. Maxim replaces Dshka as a doctrinal mg and gets reworked, though in my honest opinion because of the deathloop it needs to be removed from the game.
T1 and T2 is the same choice as LT vs Cpt: Mobile vs Static. Both have strong anti infantry and strong anti tank, with the M3A1 getting a slight bonus to mg penetration to work alongside the Dshka to keep light vehicles away.
9 Oct 2019, 15:49 PM
#5
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 6141 | Subs: 1

The time to redesign and waste time on them has long pass.

Penals nerf:

Respective tech gets a name change.

Satchel requires Molotov upgrade.
PTRS requires AT nade upgrade.


Now you adjust Conscript without fear (make 7man upgrade come free at T3 requiring both AT/Molo upgrade but without the buff and only reinforce cost reduce. Performance upgrades unlocks with T4) and possible Maxim.
9 Oct 2019, 23:12 PM
#6
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4472

Penals are not the problem, the problem is that Conscripts don't stack up to LMG Grenadiers or STG Volksgrenadiers, their lack of firepower has always held them back and does not reflect the Red Army.

Conscripts cannot fight very well, they bleed manpower and do little damage. This forces players to rely heavily on Commanders or Penal Troops as a fighting force.
10 Oct 2019, 06:23 AM
#7
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 1757

Penals are not the problem, the problem is that Conscripts don't stack up to LMG Grenadiers or STG Volksgrenadiers, their lack of firepower has always held them back and does not reflect the Red Army.

Conscripts cannot fight very well, they bleed manpower and do little damage. This forces players to rely heavily on Commanders or Penal Troops as a fighting force.


thats why they are supercheap and has much more utiltys than other mainline squad. And get the right doc (meta) and wonder how great they fight with any weapon upgrade and 7models.
10 Oct 2019, 07:20 AM
#8
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 13489 | Subs: 6



thats why they are supercheap and has much more utiltys than other mainline squad. And get the right doc (meta) and wonder how great they fight with any weapon upgrade and 7models.

(psst, lil secret for you: grens are super cheap as well and 4 cons with AT nade upgrade cost considerably more then 4 grens to the point if that cost was rolled into the unit, it would have to roflstomp grens without issues to live up to that cost)

(psst2, lil secret 2: cons can't get 7th man and any weapon upgrade, because these are mutually exclusive)
10 Oct 2019, 11:03 AM
#9
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1331



thats why they are supercheap and has much more utiltys than other mainline squad. And get the right doc (meta) and wonder how great they fight with any weapon upgrade and 7models.


grens and cons cost the same to both build and reinforce...
10 Oct 2019, 11:16 AM
#10
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 464



thats why they are supercheap and has much more utiltys than other mainline squad. And get the right doc (meta) and wonder how great they fight with any weapon upgrade and 7models.


Please outline in what way they are cheaper and better than Grenadiers.
10 Oct 2019, 12:13 PM
#11
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 262



Please outline in what way they are cheaper and better than Grenadiers.


They believe that 20mp reinforce per model vs 30/25 per model for grens and volks is a big reason they are supposedly cheap. They forget the 1.089 rec acc they have makes them drop models very easy esp early on, more so then any other main line. For being "cheap" they can bleed you dry handely. Them eating muni to is overlooked as well.

That cons start with 3 abilities ( merge oorah sandbags ) most main inf start with 2 or less, is also used to justify them being supposedly cheap. But those other inf have better base preformance then cons d. People forget that cons are the only inf that have side tech specificly for them, those cost add to the base price depending on how many cons you get. It jacks up their price.
Just to get them basic snare and worse version of incindiary nade, and the 7th man while imo a worhty upgrade adds even more cost to them if you want it early in t3.


10 Oct 2019, 12:14 PM
#12
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 262

10 Oct 2019, 12:17 PM
#13
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 13489 | Subs: 6



Please outline in what way they are cheaper and better than Grenadiers.


inb4 "they reinforce for less" when 5x 20 is 100 and 3x30 is 90 for full squad reinforce and half a squad reinforce(more likely to happen as no one sane stays to the last man) is 60 for both.
10 Oct 2019, 12:36 PM
#14
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 1757



Please outline in what way they are cheaper and better than Grenadiers.


you compare here a t0 unit vs a t1 unit which need a separate building. and you compare a 4model squad vs a 6(7) model squad. There are plenty advantages to have high model squads (merge cons with teamweapon on front, dont get unlucky wipes, can easily recrew weapons and have 3 models left(grens often cant recrewing because one model was killed))
10 Oct 2019, 13:29 PM
#15
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 13489 | Subs: 6



you compare here a t0 unit vs a t1 unit which need a separate building.


Really?
You HONESTLY believe these 10 seconds make a difference?
Grasping at straws much?

Its not soviet T1 we're talking here, but ost one, which comes out faster then you can screech "nerf allies" .
10 Oct 2019, 13:39 PM
#16
avatar of Maret

Posts: 530



you compare here a t0 unit vs a t1 unit which need a separate building. and you compare a 4model squad vs a 6(7) model squad. There are plenty advantages to have high model squads (merge cons with teamweapon on front, dont get unlucky wipes, can easily recrew weapons and have 3 models left(grens often cant recrewing because one model was killed))


Cons need separate upgrades to AT-nade and molotovs, that both cost like T1 OST building IRC. With OST T1 you got mainline infantry that work without any sidetech from early to late game. No one will be play through cons without at least AT-nades. About recrewing - yes, but SU have only one viable team weapon that you can see every game through T2 - zis gun. Also as was shown in recent topic about suppression mechanic - bigger squads got suppression faster than smaller.
Cons have worse RA than grens and when grens get their weapon upgrades, they die like flies. You need wait until your T4 will be deployed to upgrade them.
10 Oct 2019, 16:14 PM
#17
avatar of Widerstreit

Posts: 775

Rename them to "siberian reserve" and hide their weapon-up-greade like @Elchino said: Satchel requires Molotov upgrade. PTRS requires AT nade upgrade.

Now we can make a real penal-troup for a future commander or revamp.
10 Oct 2019, 20:06 PM
#18
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 1570

TBH i would love some penal revamp, into a less cheesy infantry design, but the damage is already done, all other infantries got overbuffed and redesigned instead.

I would agree to lock satchel with molo or even better, unlock molos and make them free and make the same tech unlock both AT satchel (when upgraded) and explosive satchel
11 Oct 2019, 00:32 AM
#19
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1331

Rename them to "siberian reserve" and hide their weapon-up-greade like @Elchino said: Satchel requires Molotov upgrade. PTRS requires AT nade upgrade.

Now we can make a real penal-troup for a future commander or revamp.


u could just call them strelki...

what penals need is less earlygame powerspike and more lategame scaling....

i propose to give the new "strelki" a copy of the volksgrenadier KAR and target size and a normal grenade + satchels removed from strelki... but 6 man instead of 5 man priced at 280mp.... with 2 exclusive upgrades panzerfusillier style...

a lategame AI the ability to upgrade to 2/3 DP-28s (depending on what seems balanced)...
a mutually exclusive antitank upgrade with AT satchels + regular satchels and PTRS + rifle sprint (not oorah)
11 Oct 2019, 01:05 AM
#20
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 3796

Penals are not the problem, the problem is that Conscripts don't stack up to LMG Grenadiers or STG Volksgrenadiers, their lack of firepower has always held them back and does not reflect the Red Army.

Conscripts cannot fight very well, they bleed manpower and do little damage. This forces players to rely heavily on Commanders or Penal Troops as a fighting force.
try using the 7 men upgrade
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