The Overpowered T70 shouldn't be used as a metric to not change another unit in its tier to something more useful anyways... As forgetting the su76 making you helpless against the p4.... What? You know this is an AT unit primarily right? Like... It shoots tanks.... That's what it does.
In which situation SU player will build SU-76? Right, after early lost of t-70, when you play T1. That means only what i said before - +165 fuel handicap for axis only to achieve T4 (SU-76+T4). Who in sane would build SU-76 to counter P4, while much better do it or by zis or by 2 baby-at guns? If it was good tactic (build su-76 to counter P4) we at least saw such movements on tournaments at first then on pro-games and finally in SU meta. Or i miss something?
Every lost SU-76 will also give for axis +75 fuel free time. While Axis player could play on his T3 against you, for you it will be road to dead end. You need T4 to get your T-34, su-85 and heavies.
Furthermore, WHEN the T70 gets nerfed a version of 7man could be moved to t3 to compensate for the power spike being blunted and focused on a single unit and instead the power spike would be in conscripts where it should have been in the first place. That alone might give rise to seeing more halftrack support.
How this correspond to T1 oppening? While it good suggestion, but i think IMHO it will increase power of SU more than now. T-70 is strong, but 7-th cons are stronger in my opinion. And i even don't say about such thing that cons are T2 openning, for T2 openning you don't need SU-76, you have zis.
But back to the su76 and how giving it smoke and a slight scaling rework works- the synergy with T1 would be astounding. Giving smoke to normal penals would be great, furthermore AT penals would help the squishy su76 keep from getting Dove on. It's practically a match made in heaven. You get a zis and a mortar all in one mobile and armored package and those are all things that T1 lacks
No smoke for regular infantry. Or you want to see how penals smoking way to OKW bases?
is to cheap for the 160dmg tag and AI wiping potential. have in remind it has 60 range.
and look to penals which deny any div-in trough satchel. so in best case you only their SU76 and AT penals and run around the battlefield and dont need fear anything... until panthers hit the field.
stug has 160 dmg..but is only AT, 50 range. and cost 90fuel. no wiping potential on squads.
Read carefull what i wrote.
"I already suggested improve stock damage of SU-76 to 160 when T4 is built. But lock SU-85 and katy further away in terms of timing and resources. Current pen and 160 damage is more than enough to fight against P4. While it still fragile "3 shots to die" thing. Good against mediums and lower, very bad choice against top-tier guys.Without AI it also could be easily counter by infantry and ATG. While smoke shot instead of HE barrage give few utility."
Before the pen nerf SU-76 had 100% to pen OST P4 frontal armor at long range, now it is 88% which is like 9 shots out of 10. VS P4J it is pretty much on a edge of uselessness with 3 shots out of 4 (77%) penned before and now it is almoust 2 out of 3 (68%). And keep in mind that it is not 4 shots kill like zis, but 6 (!).
So we have 280mp 75 Fuel unit with barrage CD 3X longer then Zis' with unreliable pen and low damage model. Perhaps the answer is not to buff it to being outright toxic, so people could tell horrible stories on forums of su76 hordes cheesing everything on its way, but at least be viable, for example like JP4. JP4 is not a must have unit, but it has its merits, unlike SU76. Because you'd better build another Zis gun then this abomination.
I already suggested improve stock damage of SU-76 to 160 when T4 is built. But lock SU-85 and katy further away in terms of timing and resources. Current pen and 160 damage is more than enough to fight against P4. While it still fragile "3 shots to die" thing. Good against mediums and lower, very bad choice against top-tier guys.Without AI it also could be easily counter by infantry and ATG. While smoke shot instead of HE barrage give few utility.
Problem of SU-76 is timing. T3 tier for soviets is barrier on the road to T4. While this position there is, no any chances to make SU-76 playable.
Maybe just making the barrage free again will help give it some utility. It won't be a hard-AT unit, it won't be a StuG E, it won't be replacing the T-70. It'll just be something you can grab one or two of to barrage enemy lines, and it's mediocre AT let's it defend itself slightly.
We already had this. Bad idea. Endless barrages of multiple su-76. Katies for poors. While potent to kill tanks. When su-76 got AI potent it become spammable. You can't counter them by ATG or infantry.
I already told main problem with SU-76 and su-85 lays in timing. SU-76 comes very early when you don't really need it. While right in the moment you build T4 you can start build SU-85 - proper hardcounter to any axis armor and forget about T3 units entirely. Time of life of T3 is 165 fuel (T-70+T4). Time of life for T4 - all the rest time of game. Time of life T0 - whole game, T1 - whole game (if you play through penals). Time of life T2 - whole game.
Compare to OST tiers where T4 is bonus tier with "premium" armor. You can play against SU T4 with OH T3 (P4s and stugs). WHile make it with SU T3 impossible. It makes SU T4 crucial tier for play. No T4-no victory.
Part of power SU T4 must be split. Make one earlier, while move other further away to "premium" segment. Like OST T4 works. It also could solve problem with su-85 spam. Especially if su-85 will be redesigned accordingly.
The split specialists don't work if that's all they bring to the table. A medium counter and a heavy counter are cumbersome. That's why the added utility for the su76 so that once you need to transition into heavy AT the unit retains some battlefield value. Additionally, if it was more or less a zis on tracks combined with a mortar it would synergize well with t1 that lacks both of those things. Utility to provide the scaling that raw firepower makes OP is the key I believe.
Problem with utility of SU-76 are T-70 and T4. Now T-70 can deal with LV and infantry. You don't need anything apart from t-70. I really can't imagine what kind of "utility" you want to add to SU-76 to make it playable. It's already "less zis on wheels" , but it never used in T1 because delay your T4 with all 3 crucial armor units and don't provide feild control. No one in sane will be build su-76 to then faces with angry P4, because right in the moment as you build SU-76 to counter P4, axis will get +75 fuel "gandicap". No any su-85, t-34, 7-th cons, no unlock for heavies don't arrive next 165 fuel or roughly 7 minutes (24 fuel in minute medium value if you have half map under control). Even lonely t-34 now better counter against P4, because give you at least mobility and good firepower aginst soft targets.
If you go to T1 much safer choice play defensive doctrine with 2 baby-at guns neither build su-76 to counter mediums. You don't delay your crucial tier, you don't lost field pressure because T-70 and you can survive until T4 will be deployed.
You all seem to be arguing despite all ultimately agreeing:
There's nothing the SU-76 is needed for before the SU-85 is available, and once the SU-85 is available there's no need for the SU-76.
Thats why i did suggest move su-85 further away in timings and resources, while SU-76 fully turn to light TD against mediums adn make t-34 available sooner. Problem in big time and resource gap between SU T3 and T4. SU-76 comes now really early in time when you don't need them and they also delay entire T4 tier with all 3 crucial armor units (and 7-th cons too). If this timings will be making shorte it can bring su-76 in-game without big rebalancing and alos make from su-85 TD against top-tier axis armor, not against mediums.
Aha. Just remember guys that allied vehicles have stock smoke (USF,UKF) while axis get it (mainly) through doctrines. Blitzkrieg/Combat blitz require munitions to be used while capping is a free ability. I don't think it is as bad as it is painted here. T-43s get another ability - the infamous ram. Just asymmetrical balance with allies (as usual) getting more abilities and still complaining that it is too little.
Axis get smoke on EVERY armor unit from doctrine - little different from stock USF and UKF smoke. Also doctrinal smoke works without any delay. I don't like capping and ram too. Because Ram fully opposite to "save your units gamedesign". Game always reward players who can save their units. While Ram ability looks like giblings from Starcraft2. Kill your unit to get advantage.
And once again. Cap point for T-70 perfect fit to its role as recon and harras unit. Cap point for main medium - not. I don't against specific doctrines where armor get ability to cap points, it is good decision, where you are from doctrine got entirely new way to act.
T34 is the cheapest mainline battle tank, so it's not going to have the strongest vet ability.
But cap point is decent, mainly in team games. The ability to deny infantry capping a point can absolutely be game winning, and the ability to cap far to reach places that will take a long time / be too risky for inf is also really good.
Mainly in team games... How about 1vs1? And how this explanation will be fit to t-34/85? Cap point good for T-70 and amazing fit to its role as recon unit. For mainline medium it's bad choice. And i don't want "the strongest" ability, i want usefull ability. Not ability that i can use only against weaker enemy or in very specific situations, like when OH build MG bunker to defend point.
Cap territory isn't an amazing ability but it does see plenty of use even at my level. Hell, I use it at least once in any game I have a vet T-34.
It have very narrow usage, like medkit for grens (in theory good like capping for t-34, on practice...). You can watch any tournament games (or just look 20+ games in row on Dane channel with soviets and count how many times you will see it) - againts equal opponent no one will be use tank for capping. When i play against low skill enemy, i can use cap too. But i already said - cap point for t-34 is legacy of olf "frost" system and it must be gone. All new factions like USF, OKW and UKF were made without "frost" system design. Only OH and SU have rudiments of this system.
Why every other faction have good, usefull in every game abilities for their main medium while soviets not?