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USA September patch discussion

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9 Sep 2019, 18:46 PM
#461
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 2825 | Subs: 1

I'm disappointed that nobody followed up on VonIvan's comment on early riflemen stat. Also to put in line with his comment on Gren G43 spam capacity for the next patch on the Ostheer topic.
Those 2 comments are going against the story balance team is trying to sell us at the moment.
9 Sep 2019, 18:48 PM
#462
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4306

jump backJump back to quoted post9 Sep 2019, 18:46 PMEsxile
I'm disappointed that nobody followed up on VonIvan's comment on early riflemen stat. Also to put in line with his comment on Gren G43 spam capacity for the next patch on the Ostheer topic.
Those 2 comments are going against the story balance team is trying to sell us at the moment.
do u really think Lelic gains something from lying to u
9 Sep 2019, 18:51 PM
#463
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
Director of Moderation Badge

Posts: 3600 | Subs: 1

Back to USF :)
9 Sep 2019, 18:55 PM
#464
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 2825 | Subs: 1

do u really think Lelic gains something from lying to u


Nice try but balance team =/= Relic.
9 Sep 2019, 18:57 PM
#465
avatar of miragefla
Senior Modmaker Badge

Posts: 1253 | Subs: 14

jump backJump back to quoted post9 Sep 2019, 18:46 PMEsxile
I'm disappointed that nobody followed up on VonIvan's comment on early riflemen stat. Also to put in line with his comment on Gren G43 spam capacity for the next patch on the Ostheer topic.
Those 2 comments are going against the story balance team is trying to sell us at the moment.


Which one? The Rifle buff makes G43s less viable against early USF as the Garand DPS is ramping up faster in the area the G43 wants to be.
9 Sep 2019, 18:58 PM
#466
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4306

jump backJump back to quoted post9 Sep 2019, 18:55 PMEsxile


Nice try but balance team =/= Relic.
Not going to get too involved in this, but a couple of things.




Ultimately we don't just rely on tournament results or top player opinions. While important, they are just some of the indicators that inform balance.

Currently, I have four undisputable top ten players all telling me that USF is going to be OP in the upcoming patch, after playing numerous competitive mod preview games against each other.

Conversely, I currently have zero top players telling me that the Stuka is OP or unfair in its current tier, and don't recall any directly asking me for Stuka nerfs post the last 2v2 tourney.


As a tangential point, the balance team probably won't act on this pro player feedback right now, but suspects it to be correct. If/ when USF has to receive some small adjustments post-patch, you can bet your bottom dollar many vocal USF players will protest loudly, pro player consensus for the changes or not.

Additionally, comparing tool timing/ availability across factions is reductive and borderline disingenuous. In the indirect fire department alone, you can point to areas where USF has an advantage over both Axis factions.




Not true. Sander has been an essential member of the balance team since he joined, and is comfortably one of the most dedicated and invovled.

Dirty OKW stan granted, but top fella.

jk, not really an okw stan


:snfPeter::snfPeter:

>Nice try but balance team =/= Relic
9 Sep 2019, 19:21 PM
#467
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 2349 | Subs: 5

well balance team (Sanders mostly) has sworn up and down every pro player that has tested the patch has said USF is OP. I guess you just don't know what you're talking about Von.


Would you mind actually quoting me on that?
9 Sep 2019, 20:04 PM
#468
avatar of Hon3ynuts

Posts: 817

jump backJump back to quoted post9 Sep 2019, 18:46 PMEsxile
I'm disappointed that nobody followed up on VonIvan's comment on early riflemen stat. Also to put in line with his comment on Gren G43 spam capacity for the next patch on the Ostheer topic.
Those 2 comments are going against the story balance team is trying to sell us at the moment.


I am still going to be more concerned with the m20 rush than rifles or even 50 cal when playing as ostheer.

At the same time t2 is 100 manpower cheaper so that's a large buff when 30 scoutcar fuel is not terribly hard to come by, making it easier to deal with rifles early game. 5 squad builds may become more viable compared to a typical 3 gren 1 mg scout car meta which considerably improves Ostheers early game vs the USF free tech squad.

I think this will do something to mitigate the m20 shock value, but if that's not enough mabye making the m20 upgrade take a long time, such that it will not have skirts when it finds it's first infantry target so it must play cautiously for 20-30 extra seconds. Its not super scary without skirts especially in front of an mg.
9 Sep 2019, 20:18 PM
#469
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 943

What about making it possible to tech without a squad? It would give so much more versality and solved, to some extend, upkeep and popcap issues.
9 Sep 2019, 20:41 PM
#470
avatar of Hon3ynuts

Posts: 817

What about making it possible to tech without a squad? It would give so much more versality and solved, to some extend, upkeep and popcap issues.


I think that would be nice, but econmically it would be odd
Current state
Pay 200 mp 35 fuel
Recieve Lt/Captain squad (value 300 MP)
Net 100 manpower benefit -35 fuel

Future state
Pay 35 fuel
Receive 100 MP to spend on whatever you want
Net 100 manpower benefit - 35 fuel

These two are technically equal, but it would be quite odd to receive manpower for teching. Anything less than this would be a direct nerf to the amount of resources USF has during the game.
9 Sep 2019, 20:45 PM
#472
avatar of Mr.Flush

Posts: 450



I am still going to be more concerned with the m20 rush than rifles or even 50 cal when playing as ostheer.

At the same time t2 is 100 manpower cheaper so that's a large buff when 30 scoutcar fuel is not terribly hard to come by, making it easier to deal with rifles early game. 5 squad builds may become more viable compared to a typical 3 gren 1 mg scout car meta which considerably improves Ostheers early game vs the USF free tech squad.

I think this will do something to mitigate the m20 shock value, but if that's not enough mabye making the m20 upgrade take a long time, such that it will not have skirts when it finds it's first infantry target so it must play cautiously for 20-30 extra seconds. Its not super scary without skirts especially in front of an mg.


The 222 can be called in close to the same time. Usf still got to tech to vehicles before the m20 can be called.
9 Sep 2019, 20:50 PM
#473
avatar of pvtgooner

Posts: 176



Would you mind actually quoting me on that?


check your reddit post history.
9 Sep 2019, 20:51 PM
#474
avatar of Hon3ynuts

Posts: 817



The 222 can be called in close to the same time. Usf still got to tech to vehicles before the m20 can be called.


Yes I agree, if an ostheer player is rushing 222 you do not need to stall that long unless you were unprepared. An m20 with slow skirts would not have much time to harass freely, but it is still quite useful all game long.

Probably the most difficult thing is that you need to have BP1 researched and t2 built or you will have difficulty reacting to a fast m20 even with ample resources so you must plan for an m20 regardless of whether or not it comes. #metagameproblems
9 Sep 2019, 20:53 PM
#476
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 943



I think that would be nice, but econmically it would be odd
Current state
Pay 200 mp 35 fuel
Recieve Lt/Captain squad (value 300 MP)
Net 100 manpower benefit -35 fuel

Future state
Pay 35 fuel
Receive 100 MP to spend on whatever you want
Net 100 manpower benefit - 35 fuel

These two are technically equal, but it would be quite odd to receive manpower for teching. Anything less than this would be a direct nerf to the amount of resources USF has during the game.


All true :(

But I sort of miss the possibility of having fewer infantry squads just after teching to leave some room for more varied army compisitions.
9 Sep 2019, 21:00 PM
#477
avatar of VonIvan

Posts: 2399 | Subs: 21



well balance team (Sanders mostly) has sworn up and down every pro player that has tested the patch has said USF is OP. I guess you just don't know what you're talking about Von.

Speaking from experience, I played in the Balance Patch Tournament 2 weekends ago so I know a bit about how the patch operates unless they changed things in the last week. I don't think Riflemen are a huge concern yet but maybe I haven't played someone who can use them super effectively vs me in the patch. I should also note I only used assgrens and pgrens mainly. I haven't used Grens against them yet, so maybe that is why.
9 Sep 2019, 21:05 PM
#478
avatar of Hon3ynuts

Posts: 817



All true :(

But I sort of miss the possibility of having fewer infantry squads just after teching to leave some room for more varied army compisitions.


I think if the opportunity presented itself the best possible rework for USF would include that.

Something like
WC51 t0
Officers are not free
Officers have unique upgrades (LT thompsons CPT lmgs)

Maybe including like Grenades with tech would solve the resource equation.

Outside of the rifles only t0 and officers are also rifles problem usf is in a very good spot though.
They just lack late game indirect/heavy tanks (which you can get with a doctrine) that's it. :thumb:
9 Sep 2019, 21:06 PM
#479
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 943


Speaking from experience, I played in the Balance Patch Tournament 2 weekends ago so I know a bit about how the patch operates unless they changed things in the last week. I don't think Riflemen are a huge concern yet but maybe I haven't played someone who can use them super effectively vs me in the patch.


Do You think it would be viable to use the new tech button to unlock the whole officer tier but not get the officer (it could be bought later from the given tier if the player wanted it but wouldn't be obligatory)?
9 Sep 2019, 21:08 PM
#480
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 943



I think if the opportunity presented itself the best possible rework for USF would include that.

Something like
WC51 t0
Officers are not free
Officers have unique upgrades (LT thompsons CPT lmgs)

Maybe including like Grenades with tech would solve the resource equation.

Outside of the rifles only t0 and officers are also rifles problem usf is in a very good spot though.
They just lack late game indirect/heavy tanks (which you can get with a doctrine) that's it. :thumb:


I'd open the whole tier and officer could be bought then as one of the units. I'd love that ;)
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