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USA September patch discussion

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8 Sep 2019, 12:06 PM
#401
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 4087 | Subs: 1



Firstly, these are the autoattack values. You... deliberately, most likely, left out the barrage values.

Furthermore, why not take a look at the AOE distance values?
Oh, right, it doesn't fit the "USF OP" narrative, where poor, poor Ostheer gets beaten at any range by any equivalent USF unit, and Ostheer uniquely suffers from the IDF nerfs because MG spam is totally a strategy employed by literally any other faction.

Everyone here has moved on; you're the only one who cannot seem to accept the fact that the USF mortar is worse than the Ostheer one. The very mention of it seems to trigger a kneejerk response by you.

You specifically said the autofire is a write off so the compared the auto fires...
8 Sep 2019, 12:20 PM
#402
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4340

Can we put a copy paste of the rifle man at tier 0 for osther but remove bunker from green, seems a fair trade :snfPeter:
8 Sep 2019, 12:21 PM
#403
avatar of Jilet

Posts: 400

Can we put a copy paste of the rifle man at tier 0 for osther but remove bunker from green, seems a fair trade :snfPeter:


:sibHyena:
8 Sep 2019, 15:56 PM
#404
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2330

Can we put a copy paste of the rifle man at tier 0 for osther but remove bunker from green, seems a fair trade :snfPeter:

Good idea! But then USF players will start to complaint that OST riflemen clone is better than USF riflemen, when they both are a copy of each other :luvCarrot: and then ask for riflemen buffs...
8 Sep 2019, 15:56 PM
#405
avatar of Mr.Flush

Posts: 450


You said the autofire was worthless because (besides AOE) the scatter was terrible:

Vipper quoted the autofire scatter stats to prove that it is identical to the GrW 34 and that what you said is not true. He even underlined the very same sentence to let you know which part he was trying to disprove.



The autofire AOE is 15.892 while the GrW 34's is 17.678, so even though yes it is slightly worse, it isn't really fair to call it "a writeoff".


He did say aoe and those stats were left out. Not everyone knows were to find the stats. Still the point is the usf mortar is bad vs ostheer unless the ostheer player is a complete idiot.
8 Sep 2019, 18:13 PM
#406
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 4087 | Subs: 1

I'd rather just 86 the damn auto fire entirely and make barrage have a swift cooldown. No more set and forget and there is obvious counter play (move out of the area) micro=rewards
8 Sep 2019, 19:09 PM
#407
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 7194 | Subs: 1

The autofire AOE is 15.892 while the GrW 34's is 17.678, so even though yes it is slightly worse, it isn't really fair to call it "a writeoff".


That's Cruzz "value" to overall AoE dmg if i understood it right. It's better to check how much dmg and AoE it deals.
45% less area for both close n mid (80 to 68dmg and 68 to 40 dmg) makes it feels less impactful. In the same vein but the opposite direction comes the Pack Howie. Normal mortars have 56% less area for the same ranges.


You said the autofire was worthless because (besides AOE) the scatter was terrible:

Vipper quoted the autofire scatter stats to prove that it is identical to the GrW 34 and that what you said is not true. He even underlined the very same sentence to let you know which part he was trying to disprove.


That doesn't mean his statement is not true. AUTOFIRE post mortar changes, are TERRIBLE. But i'll rather live in a world where mortars are TERRIBLE on AA, than be what they used to be.
8 Sep 2019, 19:45 PM
#408
avatar of Mr.Flush

Posts: 450



That's Cruzz "value" to overall AoE dmg if i understood it right. It's better to check how much dmg and AoE it deals.
45% less area for both close n mid (80 to 68dmg and 68 to 40 dmg) makes it feels less impactful. In the same vein but the opposite direction comes the Pack Howie. Normal mortars have 56% less area for the same ranges.




That doesn't mean his statement is not true. AUTOFIRE post mortar changes, are TERRIBLE. But i'll rather live in a world where mortars are TERRIBLE on AA, than be what they used to be.


I just wish these players would try using it ingame instead of picking out stats that fit their argument while leaving out other stats.

Aa is what makes them cancer when they are uncontested. In coh3, they should remove aa unless you have a specific artillery spotter unit. Arty spotters would come equipped with radios and be pretty poor in combat. They would also have special abilities.

8 Sep 2019, 20:30 PM
#409
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8524 | Subs: 1



I just wish these players would try using it ingame instead of picking out stats that fit their argument while leaving out other stats....

I wish people would actually check stat before making silly claims that only USF mortar has terribly auto fire scatter. It would make this forum allot better.
8 Sep 2019, 20:46 PM
#410
avatar of Mazianni

Posts: 766

jump backJump back to quoted post8 Sep 2019, 20:30 PMVipper

I wish people would actually check stat before making silly claims that only USF mortar has terribly auto fire scatter. It would make this forum allot better.


I referred to the combination of both "AOE and scatter" and you know it. You're the one who used the autoattack scatter to pass off the fantasy of the long-suffering, besieged Grw34, and this is why I asked for barrage data.

Your fallback has simply been that the Ostheer mortar has to be better than all other mortars (something it remains to be, and by your own admission) despite the uncontestable reality that it is ultimately not as necessary versus the allied team weapons it opposes, since the only allied faction with a t0 machine gun is UKF, and they don't have any sort of mobile mortar for the Grw34 to contest in the first place.

Finally, as I have said, If you want it to be buffed, take that thought and proposal to the Wehrmacht thread; this one is for discussing USF, a faction you most likely do not even play, considering your thoughts on BARs. I honestly do not understand why you people come here solely to bitch about your own units when it contains no relevancy to the thread subject.
8 Sep 2019, 20:59 PM
#411
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2330

OMG, just a little itti bitty difference in stats is enough to cascade and endless discussion of who is better and why? Lets just accept that and move on!
USF has better indirect fire options, there was a never ending discussion about pak howies and why no one cared about mortars, because they get outclassed.

Added: The whole point is not worth for asking a OST mortar nerf, nor a USF mortar buff, since it always get replaced by MHT, pak Howies or scotts... if mortars are to be main indirect fire the start by nerfing the latter indirect fire options for USF.

If USF mortar is worse, then use other IF options... or just accept that OST mortars have an advantage and dont put them 1v1 in a game...
8 Sep 2019, 21:13 PM
#412
avatar of Mr.Flush

Posts: 450

OMG, just a little itti bitty difference in stats is enough to cascade and endless discussion of who is better and why? Lets just accept that and move on!
USF has better indirect fire options, there was a never ending discussion about pak howies and why no one cared about mortars, because they get outclassed.

Added: The whole point is not worth for asking a OST mortar nerf, nor a USF mortar buff, since it always get replaced by MHT, pak Howies or scotts... if mortars are to be main indirect fire the start by nerfing the latter indirect fire options for USF.

If USF mortar is worse, then use other IF options... or just accept that OST mortars have an advantage and dont put them 1v1 in a game...


Nerfing usf indirect fire will not force usf mains to go mortar. I'm going to play Soviets when the changes go through. We are just trying to keep usf a viable option outside 1v1. We will play usf when they become a viable pick again.
8 Sep 2019, 21:28 PM
#413
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8524 | Subs: 1



I referred to the combination of both "AOE and scatter" and you know it. You're the one who used the autoattack scatter to pass off the fantasy of the long-suffering, besieged Grw34, and this is why I asked for barrage data.

Your fallback has simply been that the Ostheer mortar has to be better than all other mortars (something it remains to be, and by your own admission) despite the uncontestable reality that it is ultimately not as necessary versus the allied team weapons it opposes, since the only allied faction with a t0 machine gun is UKF, and they don't have any sort of mobile mortar for the Grw34 to contest in the first place.

Finally, as I have said, If you want it to be buffed, take that thought and proposal to the Wehrmacht thread; this one is for discussing USF, a faction you most likely do not even play, considering your thoughts on BARs. I honestly do not understand why you people come here solely to bitch about your own units when it contains no relevancy to the thread subject.

Man seriously read before posting:
I did not ask for buff of the Grw34 do not put words in my mouth.

The only reason I bothered to respond is that I was accused again that I "manipulated data" when I proved beyond any doubt that your claim that USF has inferior scatter in autofire to be false.

I have made 2 very simply points:

Unfortunately it seems that I have to repeat my 2 points:

1) USF mortar is inferior to ostheer one but not by allot and probably better than soviet, so it is inline with other mortars, basically all mortars are pretty close, (so either all mortars are garbage or none).

2) Ostheer mortars went from top of self to being slightly better than the rest so it was affected the most by the nerfs.

Now can we pls put this myths at rest and move on?
8 Sep 2019, 21:46 PM
#414
avatar of Mazianni

Posts: 766

jump backJump back to quoted post8 Sep 2019, 21:28 PMVipper

Man seriously read before posting:
I did not ask for buff of the Grw34 do not put words in my mouth.

The only reason I bothered to respond is that I was accused again that I "manipulated data" when I proved beyond any doubt that your claim that USF has inferior scatter in autofire to be false.

I have made 2 very simply points:

Unfortunately it seems that I have to repeat my 2 points:

1) USF mortar is inferior to ostheer one but not by allot and probably better than soviet, so it is inline with other mortars, basically all mortars are pretty close, (so either all mortars are garbage or none).

2) Ostheer mortars went from top of self to being slightly better than the rest so it was affected the most by the nerfs.

Now can we pls put this myths at rest and move on?


I will let it rest when you stop bringing it up every other post. I did not make the claim that the USF mortar had worse AA scatter, but that "The AOE and scatter for HE shells are so terrible that the autofire is basically a writeoff and the barrage is only good versus structures". (You'll notice this even mentions the barrage in the same sentence btw)

To which you responded: "The USF mortar has incidental scatter with Ostheer one and superior to Soviet one."

I will gladly let this conversation end, since I do not enjoy how much of this thread has been wasted validating one mortar or the other when nobody has suggested or asked for any sort of nerf or buff to either unit. But you are going to have to stop pretending I am as disingenuous as you, because when you post shit like this:

jump backJump back to quoted post8 Sep 2019, 20:30 PMVipper

I wish people would actually check stat before making silly claims that only USF mortar has terribly auto fire scatter. It would make this forum allot better.


I am going to respond.
8 Sep 2019, 21:58 PM
#415
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8524 | Subs: 1



I will let it rest when you stop bringing it up every other post. I did not make the claim that the USF mortar had worse AA scatter, but that "The AOE and scatter for HE shells are so terrible that the autofire is basically a writeoff and the barrage is only good versus structures". (You'll notice this even mentions the barrage in the same sentence btw)

To which you responded: "The USF mortar has incidental scatter with Ostheer one and superior to Soviet one."

I will gladly let this conversation end, since I do not enjoy how much of this thread has been wasted validating one mortar or the other when nobody has suggested or asked for any sort of nerf or buff to either unit. But you are going to have to stop pretending I am as disingenuous as you, because when you post shit like this:



I am going to respond.

I am not going to derail a feedback thread because you can not leave to rest.

If you want to debate more debate with the other people that share the same opiniopn
...
You have already said that
1) USF mortar is inline with other mortars, basically all mortars are pretty close, (so either all mortars are garbage or none).

2) Ostheer mortars went from tot of self to being slightly better than the rest so it was affected the most by the nerfs.

I agree, specially with the bolded part. Mortars are situational rather than "i have mp and i want to bleed my opponent". But i don't think the USF mortar is EXACTLY inline with all other mortars. It's like saying that the Pack Howie is inline with the ISG. IF YOU IGNORE that they have completely different AoE profiles. I wouldn't say having 45% less AoE on the inner and mid range makes it equal to either Soviet or OH mortar. Which is totally fine for what they need it for.

Also, different game modes, different needs.



You said the autofire was worthless because (besides AOE) the scatter was terrible:

Vipper quoted the autofire scatter stats to prove that it is identical to the GrW 34 and that what you said is not true. He even underlined the very same sentence to let you know which part he was trying to disprove.



The autofire AOE is 15.892 while the GrW 34's is 17.678, so even though yes it is slightly worse, it isn't really fair to call it "a writeoff".
8 Sep 2019, 22:08 PM
#416
avatar of Mazianni

Posts: 766

jump backJump back to quoted post8 Sep 2019, 21:58 PMVipper

I am not going to derail a feedback thread because you can not leave to rest.

If you want to debate more debate with the other people that share the same opiniopn




Jesus Christ dude. Can you not read plain English?

I want this conversation to end, and you can't stop yourself from bringing it up OVER and OVER again.
Read my post again and fuck off from this thread. This is the USF Balance thread. This is NOT the Ostheer thread. This is NOT a mortar thread.

"I will let it rest when you stop bringing it up every other post. I did not make the claim that the USF mortar had worse AA scatter, but that "The AOE and scatter for HE shells are so terrible that the autofire is basically a writeoff and the barrage is only good versus structures". (You'll notice this even mentions the barrage in the same sentence btw)

To which you responded: "The USF mortar has incidental scatter with Ostheer one and superior to Soviet one."

I will gladly let this conversation end, since I do not enjoy how much of this thread has been wasted validating one mortar or the other when nobody has suggested or asked for any sort of nerf or buff to either unit. But you are going to have to stop pretending I am as disingenuous as you, because when you post shit like this:

jump backJump back to quoted post8 Sep 2019, 20:30 PMVipper

I wish people would actually check stat before making silly claims that only USF mortar has terribly auto fire scatter. It would make this forum allot better.


I am going to respond."

You are deliberately derailing this thread. If you continue posting irrelevant garbage, whether or not you attempt to talk shit about me, I am going to report you. Go ruin some other thread.
8 Sep 2019, 22:27 PM
#417
avatar of Mr.Flush

Posts: 450

What usf really needs is a unit with good vision that you can get immediately. Pathfinders have a cd before you can call them on the field and require a doctrine. Currently, if you want to find the arc of an mg you have to let it fire at one of your squads.
8 Sep 2019, 22:33 PM
#418
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15447 | Subs: 7

Currently, if you want to find the arc of an mg you have to let it fire at one of your squads.


And that's fine. Its usually how it goes for any faction in very early game. Real scouting units arrive between 1 and 2 CP usually, Kubel excluded.
8 Sep 2019, 22:35 PM
#419
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8524 | Subs: 1

...

You can debate anything related to mortars here:
https://www.coh2.org/topic/97332/a-comparison-of-mortar-in-the-game
Have a nice day.
8 Sep 2019, 22:40 PM
#420
avatar of Mr.Flush

Posts: 450



And that's fine. Its usually how it goes for any faction in very early game. Real scouting units arrive between 1 and 2 CP usually, Kubel excluded.


Kinda. Brits have the uc, Soviets have snipers and scout cars, allied mgs have been nerfed so okw can frontally assault them as long as they have two squads, and Ost has good vision through pioneers.

If ostheer tries their mg turtle strat vs Soviets it is not going to go so well. But I'm kinda a huge sniper user.
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