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russian armor

Some change for Consript

26 May 2019, 22:57 PM
#1
avatar of WAAAGH2000

Posts: 318

1.Molotov be default ability, no need upgrade at HQ
2.PPSH be default weapon upgrade,after build any 2 HQ(T1+T2 or T1/T2 +T3)unlock upgrade,after upgrade PPsh,Cons can uses “uraaa!” and replace molotov by grenade
3.Commander ability PPsh upgrade replace by 2x can't drop DP,I think DP with prone is more better
26 May 2019, 23:37 PM
#2
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6448 | Subs: 1

Instead of buffing every unit out there how about starting to nerf units.
26 May 2019, 23:39 PM
#3
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4494

jump backJump back to quoted post26 May 2019, 23:37 PMVipper
Instead of buffing every unit out there how about starting to nerf units.


How are you going to nerf Infantry Sections or Riflemen without breaking those factions?
27 May 2019, 01:14 AM
#4
avatar of Kommandant_Omi

Posts: 19

jump backJump back to quoted post26 May 2019, 23:37 PMVipper
Instead of buffing every unit out there how about starting to nerf units.


Buffing is imo always better than nerfing
27 May 2019, 02:48 AM
#5
avatar of Kurobane

Posts: 137



How are you going to nerf Infantry Sections or Riflemen without breaking those factions?




Rather than nerf certain units, target modifiers should be used. For example, a mortar unit is under performing, rather than straight buff the unit it could gain a 10% accuracy/scatter buff against the units it is meant to counter so that unintended consequences against other units dont pop up causing an endless buff/nerf cycle.
27 May 2019, 03:40 AM
#6
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 1690





Rather than nerf certain units, target modifiers should be used. For example, a mortar unit is under performing, rather than straight buff the unit it could gain a 10% accuracy/scatter buff against the units it is meant to counter so that unintended consequences against other units dont pop up causing an endless buff/nerf cycle.


That concept will lead to a rock paper scissors based game, like C&C. It seems logical but also very unrealistic and complex.

About OP ideas. Cons need a buff, but a single effective one, not a triple OPness blessing to outshine pedals. Apart from that I agree with the free moles.
27 May 2019, 08:43 AM
#7
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6448 | Subs: 1


How are you going to nerf Infantry Sections or Riflemen without breaking those factions?

There many way of doing that if it is needed.

Imo thou one has to start with VG and Penal and not Riflemen and IS.


Buffing is imo always better than nerfing

Then the continuous circle of buffing will continue and in the end models will start dropping at the moment infatry start shooting at max range.
27 May 2019, 11:22 AM
#9
avatar of Crecer13

Posts: 1499 | Subs: 3

I like what PPSh-41 would be without the commander and the DP-27 the ability of the commander.
27 May 2019, 11:35 AM
#10
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 1983 | Subs: 3

jump backJump back to quoted post27 May 2019, 08:43 AMVipper
Imo thou one has to start with VG and Penal and not Riflemen and IS.


Volksgrenadiers aren't even close to how powerful bolstered Infantry Sections are?


The problem with Volks is how fast OKW can field them alongside their Sturmpioneers, not their raw performance which is good but not anything special.
27 May 2019, 12:55 PM
#11
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6448 | Subs: 1


Volksgrenadiers aren't even close to how powerful bolstered Infantry Sections are?

Different issues.


The problem with Volks is how fast OKW can field them alongside their Sturmpioneers, not their raw performance which is good but not anything special.

  • VG are badly design, they can fight at all ranges and deal with most situation cost effectively, leaving little room for other unit.
  • The reason why OKW infatry is powerful is of little importance as long as they are allied infatry will have to remain strong
  • VG's performance effect both balance and diversity issues, an does penals performance
  • One has to start nerfing somewhere and VG/Penals is a very good place to start
27 May 2019, 13:01 PM
#12
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 13805 | Subs: 7

But... you don't want maxims to be viable, you don't want cons to be viable, but you want to nerf penals so there is "diversity"?

How is that supposed to work?

OKW have crapload of infantry to rely on to take weight off volks, both stock and doctrinally.

What's supposed to actually work in soviet army if you break penals legs and cons and maxims already are on wheelchairs?
27 May 2019, 13:42 PM
#13
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 1983 | Subs: 3

jump backJump back to quoted post27 May 2019, 12:55 PMVipper
  • VG are badly design, they can fight at all ranges and deal with most situation cost effectively, leaving little room for other unit.
  • The reason why OKW infatry is powerful is of little importance as long as they are allied infatry will have to remain strong
  • VG's performance effect both balance and diversity issues, an does penals performance
  • One has to start nerfing somewhere and VG/Penals is a very good place to start


Volks get pummeled by Penals, upgraded Riflemen and bolstered Infantry Sections. It's the reason OKW is so reliant on light vehicle spam into Command Panther. The fact that they can fight at all ranges isn't always an advantage because it also means that they're not good at any range - and lose to Allied infantry whenever those are in their preferred range.

The reasons why OKW's infantry composition is powerful is the most important of all, because the biggest reason doesn't have to do much with Volksgrenadiers' raw performance but much more with OKW's ability to flood the field with a very strong starter unit backed up by good cost effective infantry in very little time, giving them early map control. Tone down OKW's starting manpower (and give them back some power in the mid game with earlier Obers and scalable Sturmpioneers) and the Allies have a much better chance to get into the early game without having to nerf any unit's performance (which would probably have more and bigger indirect consequences).

Assuming you mean current OKW early power (caused by Volks performance according to you) causes diversity issues in Allied build orders as in they are forced into certain units to deal with them, again this would also be solved by toning down OKW's starting resources. The problem is not that Riflemen get outperformed by Volksgrenadiers, over time they won't (Rifles are equal to better at minute 0 but pull ahead once they get vet and upgrades), but that they get pushed off the field early by the Volks/Sturms combo. Tone down the speed with which OKW is able to flood the field, and you'll solve the early game balance problems without also ruining the mid game balance (by nerfing Volks's raw performance) which is mostly even between Volks/Penals/RM/Grens.

I agree that Penals are a little bit too strong at minute 0, but Volksgrenadiers are not. However Penals could only get nerfed after OKW receives some early/mid power changes or the Soviets would get wiped off the field as Penals + M3 is the only way for the Soviets to reign in OKW's early game at the moment.
27 May 2019, 13:59 PM
#14
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6448 | Subs: 1


...

Again regardless of their performance both Penal and VG they are fundamentally badly designed since they are too cost efficient for all around units leaving little room for more specialized units.

Their design and performance creates problems both in balance and diversity.
27 May 2019, 16:16 PM
#15
avatar of insaneHoshi

Posts: 911

jump backJump back to quoted post27 May 2019, 13:01 PMKatitof
But... you don't want maxims to be viable, you don't want cons to be viable, but you want to nerf penals so there is "diversity"?

How is that supposed to work?

OKW have crapload of infantry to rely on to take weight off volks, both stock and doctrinally.

What's supposed to actually work in soviet army if you break penals legs and cons and maxims already are on wheelchairs?


Do you exist in a world where a unit can only fit into two possibilities, OP and UP?
27 May 2019, 16:30 PM
#16
avatar of Raviloli

Posts: 66

jump backJump back to quoted post27 May 2019, 13:59 PMVipper

Again regardless of their performance both Penal and VG they are fundamentally badly designed since they are too cost efficient for all around units leaving little room for more specialized units.

Their design and performance creates problems both in balance and diversity.


Penals, while strong, are far from the most cost-efficient infantry. You have to build a 160 mp tech building and then build every single penal for 300 MP, which means you have to play them perfectly in the early game or you will easily lose any and all map control.

They also aren't all that versatile imho, unupgraded they totally kick infantry ass, but that's only in a vaccuum with no variables involved, they have no grenades (a snail could dodge a satchel so it doesn't count) OR they get the AT package which makes them marginally useful at shooting light vehicles and snaring, but their AI capability is basically neutered and they're only good for ambushing and making opponents think twice about vehicle diving at that point.
27 May 2019, 16:46 PM
#17
avatar of blancat

Posts: 604

conscript grenade will be OP

molotove default is also not necessary

u forgot coscript is 240/20 infantry

27 May 2019, 16:56 PM
#18
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6448 | Subs: 1



Penals, while strong, are far from the most cost-efficient infantry. You have to build a 160 mp tech building and then build every single penal for 300 MP, which means you have to play them perfectly in the early game or you will easily lose any and all map control.

They also aren't all that versatile imho, unupgraded they totally kick infantry ass, but that's only in a vaccuum with no variables involved, they have no grenades (a snail could dodge a satchel so it doesn't count) OR they get the AT package which makes them marginally useful at shooting light vehicles and snaring, but their AI capability is basically neutered and they're only good for ambushing and making opponents think twice about vehicle diving at that point.

Try not to confuse "too cost efficient for all around units" with "the most cost-efficient infantry".

Going T1 in 1vs1 might behave some risk involved but it diminishes in 2vs2 and above and this an additional reason why they are badly designed.
27 May 2019, 17:39 PM
#19
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 371

jump backJump back to quoted post27 May 2019, 16:46 PMblancat
conscript grenade will be OP

molotove default is also not necessary

u forgot coscript is 240/20 infantry



If the changes for cons in the commander patch go live they dont.

20 mp might sound cheap. But wich squad drops the most models by far? Conscripts do. Wich squad has side tech of 250mp and 35fuel just for basic snare and very slow anti garrison/cover? Cons do.

Divide those cost over total squads of cons and that is your actual squad cost.

Almost every faction has acces to sandbags now. That is no longer something special for cons. Volks have a cheaper better flame nade. Every one has snare now on inf squads non doc. Out of every other main inf squad only cons dont scale in their role. And to top it off oorah is nearly mandatory to even connect a snare. Making it a very expensive snare.

Right now 240mp plus 250mp and 45 fuel is way to much for what cons can do throughout the game.

The changes from the cmmdr patch will let them scale. Defend from cover. Wich they suck at now. Merge will be buffed so that the chance of it costing you the squad is a lot lower and you can fully crew a teamweapon from the moment you claim it. And lower reinforce cost further buffs merge.

I really hope the changes from the patch go live. Cons can do more the only snare and die in the late game.

27 May 2019, 18:06 PM
#20
avatar of blancat

Posts: 604



If the changes for cons in the commander patch go live they dont.

20 mp might sound cheap. But wich squad drops the most models by far? Conscripts do. Wich squad has side tech of 250mp and 35fuel just for basic snare and very slow anti garrison/cover? Cons do.

Divide those cost over total squads of cons and that is your actual squad cost.

Almost every faction has acces to sandbags now. That is no longer something special for cons. Volks have a cheaper better flame nade. Every one has snare now on inf squads non doc. Out of every other main inf squad only cons dont scale in their role. And to top it off oorah is nearly mandatory to even connect a snare. Making it a very expensive snare.

Right now 240mp plus 250mp and 45 fuel is way to much for what cons can do throughout the game.

The changes from the cmmdr patch will let them scale. Defend from cover. Wich they suck at now. Merge will be buffed so that the chance of it costing you the squad is a lot lower and you can fully crew a teamweapon from the moment you claim it. And lower reinforce cost further buffs merge.

I really hope the changes from the patch go live. Cons can do more the only snare and die in the late game.





if u want cons buff, nerf fucking guard and shocks

cons is already good anvil infantry and guard do everything now

cons is not hammer infantry

That's why cons is a cheap infantry

ostruppen need more dps or weapon? no

Do not look at a single unit, but look at the balance of the whole faction



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