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Conscripts idea "Human Wave Tactics"

11 May 2019, 07:10 AM
#21
avatar of Balanced_Gamer

Posts: 783

jump backJump back to quoted post11 May 2019, 02:58 AMblancat
ridiculous idea


play more soviet and axis and comeback here


You don't even know the whole flow of the game

The balance of the game is not a delusion or a movie



The concept of this idea and the historical context is not delusional. It was not inspired from movies rather from historical sources.

The flow of the game I understand. I played it a lot to understand enough how annoying blobs can be in this game. SU Conscript massive numbers makes sense since when they had the numbers. The idea is not bad. I have another better idea, why not care to share it if you yours is better?. I am willing to see that Conscripts get some upgrade of sorts matched according to its role in history, makes it all the more fun and unique.

The reason why they have merging in this game is related to the ideal concept of massive numbers. Does not take one to learn or understand the inspiration behind this idea! That why this idea is not bad. More men to support and merge support weapons. Not a bad idea after all.

Why not suggest what is best for Conscripts or what upgrades would fit them better?

That is also where balancing comes in, to make it not overpowered nor too weak either. To also have a designed concept or a fit fulfilled role.

I have played a lot of Soviets, I know the play or style to know even fact that people mention that Conscripts is not good enough due to the simple fact that they do not have an upgrade to scale early-mid game. I personally think they are a good supportive unit but they do not exactly scale well as soon as they obtain upgrades. I only usually get 1 or 2 max.

I dislike your assumption on peoples so called understanding of the game. It does not take long to understand the whole concept. It is a video game after all.
12 May 2019, 19:34 PM
#22
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4928

I disagree with this. For so long we have been searching for a way to make cons viable lategame with no real success. The most pragmatic solution here would be to allow them to buy a DP28 once the t70-su76-m3 building has been build and maybe slightly tweak the vetetancy accordingly. Also it would fix the under representation of DP28's in this game.


That's at odds with Conscript's being close range infantry as opposed to Grenadiers. We also have Grenadiers and Tommies already using LMG's, while America and OKW use mid range automatic rifles. The Soviet Army is also barely equipped with SMG's in CoH2, compared to reality where they had massive numbers of them. What I'm saying is if they get an upgrade, it should be PPSh's, and in my opinion they should be global as well.
13 May 2019, 16:57 PM
#23
avatar of ElSlayer

Posts: 1605 | Subs: 1

If Relic will make CoH3 I hope they will add Polish cavalry so I could attack german tanks with sabres.
13 May 2019, 17:10 PM
#24
avatar of Butcher

Posts: 1210

If Relic will make CoH3 I hope they will add Polish cavalry so I could attack german tanks with sabres.
That's actually a myth. They would use their horses only for transportation, dismount and use anti tank rifles quite efficiently.
13 May 2019, 17:18 PM
#25
avatar of Balanced_Gamer

Posts: 783

jump backJump back to quoted post13 May 2019, 17:10 PMButcher
That's actually a myth. They would use their horses only for transportation, dismount and use anti tank rifles quite efficiently.


It is not a myth. It is a historical fact.
13 May 2019, 17:29 PM
#26
avatar of The_rEd_bEar

Posts: 760

This the dumbest idea I've ever read, and op please for the love of God read a history book and stop watching enemy at the gates
13 May 2019, 17:41 PM
#27
avatar of Balanced_Gamer

Posts: 783

Who said that we have learnt it from "Enemy At the Gates". It is in history books. So annoying when people do not know even half of the story!
13 May 2019, 18:00 PM
#28
avatar of Crecer13

Posts: 2120 | Subs: 2

Who said that we have learnt it from "Enemy At the Gates". It is in history books. So annoying when people do not know even half of the story!


Whose history books? Give me a photo report from the German or Soviet side which states that the soldiers fought without weapons? There are no such reports. If we take an example from the Enemy at the Gate, the situation was the opposite: there was an excess of weapons and a shortage of people, because 80 million Soviet people were on the occupied territory, only in 1942 1,500,000 PPSh-41s were produced.
13 May 2019, 18:39 PM
#29
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4928

If Relic will make CoH3 I hope they will add Polish cavalry so I could attack german tanks with sabres.
jump backJump back to quoted post13 May 2019, 17:10 PMButcher
That's actually a myth. They would use their horses only for transportation, dismount and use anti tank rifles quite efficiently.
It is not a myth. It is a historical fact.


It is a myth created by uninformed civilians and uplifted by German Propaganda. By World War II the Polish Cavalry was used for recon or as infantry (dismounting before battle), and armed with rifles and pistols like everyone else.

During a cavalry charge against advancing German infantry, the Poles were ambushed by Armored Cars and Machine Guns that had been out of sight at the start of the battle. In the aftermath civilians saw dead soldiers and horses and widely assumed the cavalry had charged German tanks (mistaking the armored cars for panzers); the German Army picked up on this theory and begun spreading it as fact in order to portray their enemies as primitive and stupid.

Despite the failure and humiliation, this charge actually did stall the German advance and buy enough time for the Polish Army to retreat to a more defensible position.
13 May 2019, 18:42 PM
#30
avatar of Balanced_Gamer

Posts: 783

You know there is internet right?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Poland

It is said that the Polish army consisted 10% were cavalry and other stuff that you can find there. Even other nations used Cavalry in eastern europe, even Italy for that matter since they were lagging behind. The Battle of Krasnobród was considered a myth. Some say it had occurred. History is written by those in different aspects. One telling partly while missing the other. There is even also suggested reports saying that there was events that occurred that cavalry engaged even tanks although that is absurd but it is a fact.

Even if the battle did not take place. There was still usage of Cavalry during the war.

Every source is different. History is always being debated continuously. You can consider some elements and aspects true while other are still being discussed.

I never said Conscripts fought without weapons. Only some were not armed. 1940-1941 they were still not entirely economically and militarily prepared. SU was not prepared only until 1948 which was their intended goal of being fit for conflict.

You can take your time in reading history books and watching documentaries.

Enemy at the Gates is not all true. Only certain elements, the rest is for the purpose of drama and entertainment. It is a movie, not a documentary
13 May 2019, 18:43 PM
#31
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

I never said Conscripts fought without weapons. Only some were not armed.


If you're not armed, you don't have a weapon.
13 May 2019, 18:51 PM
#32
avatar of Balanced_Gamer

Posts: 783

jump backJump back to quoted post13 May 2019, 18:43 PMLago


If you're not armed, you don't have a weapon.


Word order. Here are 2 examples. Lets play "I Spy a Book of Picture Riddles".

1./ Were not armed.
2./ Some were not armed.


Do you see the difference?
13 May 2019, 19:01 PM
#33
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4928

You know there is internet right?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Poland

It is said that the Polish army consisted 10% were cavalry and other stuff that you can find there. Even other nations used Cavalry in eastern europe, even Italy for that matter since they were lagging behind. The Battle of Krasnobród was considered a myth. Some say it had occurred. History is written by those in different aspects. One telling partly while missing the other. There is even also suggested reports saying that there was events that occurred that cavalry engaged even tanks although that is absurd but it is a fact.

Even if the battle did not take place. There was still usage of Cavalry during the war.

Every source is different. History is always being debated continuously. You can consider some elements and aspects true while other are still being discussed.

I called the idea of cavalry with lances charging german tanks a myth, and now you're trying to muddy the waters by reaffirming that they did in fact used cavalry and then claiming that the entire battle might be a myth. History is quite clear, the Polish used cavalry, but not for cavalry charges with lances; the Poles themselves deemed cavalry charges as an outdated and now ineffective way of storming enemy lines. That's why cavalry were being mechanized, and those that weren't were used for reconnaissance or as infantry (again, leaving the horses behind before battle).


I never said Conscripts fought without weapons. Only some were not armed. 1940-1941 they were still not entirely economically and militarily prepared. SU was not prepared only until 1948 which was their intended goal of being fit for conflict.

The Soviet Union, the army that stormed Berlin, was "not prepared"? This is the army that outnumbered all Western forces combined 2-1. Churchill and Patton expressed interest in a war with them, but such an action was deemed reckless and unfeasible. So tell me how exactly the army that crushed Nazi Germany and intimidated the Western Allies was "not prepared".
13 May 2019, 19:05 PM
#34
avatar of Highfiveeeee

Posts: 1740

This whole "Soviets only threw more and more guys until the Germans drowned in bodies" stuff is the main reason why CoH2 failed in Eastern Europe, the region were Relic was sure the game will become a hit.

The reason behind this was (besides some propaganda issues about order 227) that the game displays the Russians as stupid morons - for example in the first(?) mission of the campaign where the German MG42s will mow down Russians after Russians that blindly charge from the front.

While I also do not like the overly patriotic attitude of the video, some Russian dude explained it pretty well:

13 May 2019, 19:21 PM
#35
avatar of Butcher

Posts: 1210

...
Ah, that Russian guy who justifies shooting German prisoners with "It's war." Great. Russians are just way too butthurt to admit that their system was almost the same shit as the nazis but in red.
13 May 2019, 20:01 PM
#36
avatar of cochosgo

Posts: 301

The guys that get shot in the fountain are actually rusian/ucranian/slavic fascists armed by the nazis, which pretty much labels them as traitors.

But I digress, calling what happened between the fascist armies (raised from all across europe) and the red army as merely a war is great understatement to the brutality of the means to achieve the political objectives of the invasion of the USSR.
13 May 2019, 20:11 PM
#37
avatar of Crecer13

Posts: 2120 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post13 May 2019, 19:21 PMButcher
Ah, that Russian guy who justifies shooting German prisoners with "It's war." Great. Russians are just way too butthurt to admit that their system was almost the same shit as the nazis but in red.


Each side of WWII shot prisoners of war, do you think the simple Soviet soldier has a deal? He knows that German soldiers are burning villages, shooting civilians of their relatives, he saw it with his own eyes? Do you think they will care that this is not correct? He will absolutely not care, he just wants revenge.
13 May 2019, 20:12 PM
#38
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2358

I lost the thread at some point, but i want to say only one thing.

"Human wave tactics" is a deceptive name.
Firstly IRL situations are only used to add flavour, once balance is fine.
Secondly, there is no point on making a loosing snowball tactic, since cons being numerous but weak will only lead to XP feed. The only human tactic in CoH2 is blobbing. Human tactics sounds like blobbing with extra steps.

Cons squad number superiority is because they can reinforce other squads. Otherwise they are useless in that task. Extra conscript to make pseudo-blobs could be a thing, but the focus must be that one, a single squad blob.
It will carry though problems with cover, with weapons equipped, with xp feed and finally with faction design.
It breaks more than it fixes, and its not a broken thing the one you fix in the first place

Added: The only implementation i see is to allow cons squad increase to 9 man and allow them to exceed that number with merge. But they still have mosins and that is a problem.
13 May 2019, 20:15 PM
#39
avatar of Maret

Posts: 711

If someone is intersting on roots of Poland "sabre attack on tanks", here is resource (on russian)
https://warspot.ru/13048-konnye-ataki-sentyabrskoy-kampanii
If shortly said: poland cavalry attacked german infantry with sabre attack like in old times and defeat them, but after that was cathced under machine gun fire from germans armored cars. Dead polands soldiers were buried germans with honor. There is italian reporter (Mario Appelius) that saw this attack.
13 May 2019, 20:19 PM
#40
avatar of Maret

Posts: 711

I think everyone remembered old times where ability "Relief infantry" for soviets not was nerfed. In one championship one player collect 13 squads!! of cons with it. He won 1 match, but was defeated in next when OST player dropped claster bomb on main base that killed all of them (in those times ability could been used on main base).
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