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russian armor

Can we adjust the Scott already?

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3 Mar 2019, 21:26 PM
#41
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2


Your definition of durable exceeds its normal values. Firstly you use it equally as tough, wich scotts are not, but secondly you ignore the facts that scotts have higher HP than any other mobile light arty. As for it takes 3 shots it means you have plenty of time to retreat, since the normal ambush uses 2 AT guns at most. Lastly because scotts have such a high performance in other role than their intrnded role (indirect fire cover) OP asked for a discussion. Not its durability, not his mobility, but its AI autoattack power. Nice derail there tho.


But it's never been used nor it's main intended role is to be used as an indirect weapon as mortars or artillery. The unit is closer to a mobile light armored Brummbear. At most you'll see someone use the smoke from time to time.

It's ingenuous to compare it to rocket artillery, because they behave in a different way (long cooldown, no AA, fire most of it payload in 1 go). That's why they have an HP pool of 160. Because they don't need to be in the frontlines to work.
The closest thing is the MHT and it's still quite different even if we don't compare it's cost, popcap or time or arrival. Let's take a look at garrison clearing.

Mortars have a 0.50 modifier against garrison on direct hits and have a far dmg of 20 (this is used to calculate the dmg they deal to all entities inside a building despite whether or not they are close to the impact of a shell).
The Scott is set to 0.25 and 10dmg respectively.


Thinking a bit more, the closest related unit to the Scott should be the Stug-E.
3 Mar 2019, 22:56 PM
#42
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1



Extremly durable? Come on. You can call KT durable (not extremely durable), an elefant, or IS-2. But definitely not the scott. If the scott is extremely durable then how do I describe an average medium like sherman or p4? Indestructible?

Now read the whole related post:

jump backJump back to quoted post3 Mar 2019, 17:23 PMVipper

...
You are truing to described the Scott as a fragile vehicle, it is not. It actually one of the most difficult to kill indirect fire unit.

The Scott is extremely durable, very mobile while being more effective than the majority of "mortar" weapons having able to hit moving target and having a kill radius of 1.25.
...
tree)

Try to compare it with the other units you brought up like mortar half-trucks and Stuka and you will see that it is extremely durable and very hard to kill.

Now we can spent endless pages arguing at this low level but the point remains, your claims that Scott "can't really engage ATGs" is false and so is the claim that Scott "dies to light breeze".

Scott can threaten ATG and it very difficult to kill.
3 Mar 2019, 23:04 PM
#43
avatar of ferwiner
Donator 11

Posts: 2885

jump backJump back to quoted post3 Mar 2019, 22:56 PMVipper

Now read the whole related post:


Try to compare it with the other units you brought up like mortar half-trucks and Stuka and you will see that it is extremely durable and very hard to kill.


Scott is quite a unique niche unit. There are only two other units that are somewhat comparable to it. One is brummbar, the other is stug-e. Neither of these is less durable than a scott.

You can't compare durability of the scott to rocket trucks as it simply is not one. What it is is an ISG mounted on a light tank. That is why there isn't a single unit directly comparable to it. The closest unit in whole coh series would be a hotchkiss.
3 Mar 2019, 23:11 PM
#44
avatar of LoopDloop

Posts: 3053

If it was made any worse there would be no reason to build one. You'd be better off with a mortar, or a mortar HT.

It's a budget Brummbar that dies to a stiff breeze. For 70 fuel it should - and does - preform acceptably against infantry.

It's actually pretty hard to kill if you're microing/supporting it well. It's a non-frontline unit that can survive 2 hits and gets smoke at vet1. Easy to lose if you aren't paying attention but that's the price you pay for it being fast and powerful (and for being a US vehicle lol).

That being said I would say its overall fine. You sacrifice at capability in your armor if you make them, just like the brummbar or stug e, and so it gets to be really good at its job, just like the brummbar or stug e.

And it really isn't at all comparable to rocket arty. It has to continuously be using its auto attack to be efficient and the barrage is really a secondary thing IMO, so that's why it gets more health I guess.
4 Mar 2019, 00:10 AM
#45
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1



Scott is quite a unique niche unit. There are only two other units that are somewhat comparable to it. One is brummbar, the other is stug-e. Neither of these is less durable than a scott.

You can't compare durability of the scott to rocket trucks as it simply is not one. What it is is an ISG mounted on a light tank. That is why there isn't a single unit directly comparable to it.

I am glad that we got past the theories that is comparable to rocket arty and MHTs.

Compared to Brumbar and Stug-E it has turret, higher mobility, more range in auto-fire and more range in barrage from vet 0.

It might not have the armor or HP of Brumbar but it does not make it easy to kill, while costing less than half the fuel.
4 Mar 2019, 00:18 AM
#46
avatar of aerafield

Posts: 2977 | Subs: 3

Scott is extremely annoying if more than 1 is on the field cuz it's too durable. Decrease the health from 400 to 320 or 240 and replace the vet 1 smoke with something like more range on smoke barrage. It's just silly how shit your micro can be with this unit yet it survives the craziest situations cuz of 400hp + smoke.
(Or players just dont care cuz scott is kinda cheap?)

Then its lethality can stay as it is IMO.


And I'm sorry but I have the feeling people who think scott is fine never played vs top players who got at least 2 scotts... and dont know how infuriating it usually is to play vs that. You literally cant destroy them atm if the enemy's micro is above 5 clicks per minute.

4 Mar 2019, 01:32 AM
#47
avatar of Mr.Flush

Posts: 450

Scott is extremely annoying if more than 1 is on the field cuz it's too durable. Decrease the health from 400 to 320 or 240 and replace the vet 1 smoke with something like more range on smoke barrage. It's just silly how shit your micro can be with this unit yet it survives the craziest situations cuz of 400hp + smoke.
(Or players just dont care cuz scott is kinda cheap?)

Then its lethality can stay as it is IMO.


And I'm sorry but I have the feeling people who think scott is fine never played vs top players who got at least 2 scotts... and dont know how infuriating it usually is to play vs that. You literally cant destroy them atm if the enemy's micro is above 5 clicks per minute.



There is a way to adjust the scott to make both sides happy: Add white phosphorus or incendiary barrage to its barrage then nerf or remove its auto-fire. It also needs to be able to kill bunkers with ease too.
4 Mar 2019, 02:20 AM
#48
avatar of LoopDloop

Posts: 3053



There is a way to adjust the scott to make both sides happy: Add white phosphorus or incendiary barrage to its barrage then nerf or remove its auto-fire. It also needs to be able to kill bunkers with ease too.

That's what pack howie is for though. The reason most people build scotts is specifically to kill inf with auto fire like the brummbar or stug e but at longer range. Like others have said, the barrage is more of a bonus.
4 Mar 2019, 02:42 AM
#49
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
Director of Moderation Badge

Posts: 4183 | Subs: 4

I don't think the scott is fine, but how do OST players at top levels even deal with 2x scotts? If you have LMG grens, they need to remain stationary to fire which is asking to get shot at, 4 men squads prone to explosive issues, and you can't rak cloak cheese.
4 Mar 2019, 03:17 AM
#50
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2358

For an indirect fire weapon is rather strange it can fire on the move. Make it unable to autofire unless its set to a stationary mode. Handbrake mode if you wish. It will make them so much micro intensive that no one could exploit its OPness
4 Mar 2019, 05:57 AM
#51
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Mar 2019, 00:10 AMVipper

I am glad that we got past the theories that is comparable to rocket arty and MHTs.


By we do you mean you?

jump backJump back to quoted post3 Mar 2019, 17:23 PMVipper

You are truing to described the Scott as a fragile vehicle, it is not. It actually one of the most difficult to kill indirect fire unit.

The Scott is extremely durable, very mobile while being more effective than the majority of "mortar" weapons having able to hit moving target and having a kill radius of 1.25.


The Scott is great. But the last thing I would nerf is it's durability. Its range is the reason it's durable. Just lengthen the reload of auto-fire, and maybe increase it's on-the-move penalty


4 Mar 2019, 07:02 AM
#53
avatar of Doomlord52

Posts: 959

I don't think the scott is fine, but how do OST players at top levels even deal with 2x scotts? If you have LMG grens, they need to remain stationary to fire which is asking to get shot at, 4 men squads prone to explosive issues, and you can't rak cloak cheese.


Pretty much this. On paper, the scott is reasonably fine; but in practice it basically hard-counters OST.

If you're getting pushed by 3-4 rifle squads, you pretty much need to rely on your support weapons and LMG grens to counter them; but all of those units NEED to stay still in order to be effective... which means they're destroyed by the scotts; and if you move, the rifle squads close in and destroy your units. Sure, you can try to dive the scotts with Mediums/TDs, but that means hoping you don't get hit by bazookas/AT/M36s. It's just not a reliable counter.

All the scott needs is an increase on 'micro-tax'. Reducing the auto-fire range to half (or something like that) of what it is now, and the unit is basically fixed. It's still just as strong as before, but requires micro for it to be effective. That would also bring it in line with all the other units of that roll (STUG-E, Brumbar), which basically require manual attack-ground commands to work.

4 Mar 2019, 07:57 AM
#55
avatar of addvaluejack

Posts: 261

I would like to nerf its HP to 320 and keep the rest stats unchanged, so Axis can use medium tanks to counter it. It already has better max speed, acceleration and armour than most indirect fire units.
4 Mar 2019, 07:59 AM
#56
avatar of SeductiveCardbordBox

Posts: 591 | Subs: 1



Pretty much this. On paper, the scott is reasonably fine; but in practice it basically hard-counters OST.

If you're getting pushed by 3-4 rifle squads, you pretty much need to rely on your support weapons and LMG grens to counter them; but all of those units NEED to stay still in order to be effective... which means they're destroyed by the scotts; and if you move, the rifle squads close in and destroy your units. Sure, you can try to dive the scotts with Mediums/TDs, but that means hoping you don't get hit by bazookas/AT/M36s. It's just not a reliable counter.

All the scott needs is an increase on 'micro-tax'. Reducing the auto-fire range to half (or something like that) of what it is now, and the unit is basically fixed. It's still just as strong as before, but requires micro for it to be effective. That would also bring it in line with all the other units of that roll (STUG-E, Brumbar), which basically require manual attack-ground commands to work.



Nothing that a pair of Mortar HTs wouldn't achieve at half the price, at an earlier time in the game, only with access to WP for bonus machine gun hate.

The main gun on the scott does not outrange AT guns on autofire and the shell arc firing over obstacles gives the rounds plenty of travel time before they land. For 70 fuel invested over a Pack Howitzer (which brings considerably more hurt) it gets to be as durable as a Greyhound.

If a pair of them are laying into you thats 140fuel in the pot with zero AT potential. You should be able to work your counters appropriately.

The scott is good but it's also major tech, has a modest AoE and the barrage is only a polite request for a unit to move. Its AI falls well brlow the StuG E and Brum, it can't bounce anything, and anybody telling you to circle AT guns with it is a German trying to sabotage the allied war effort.
4 Mar 2019, 08:11 AM
#57
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1


By we do you mean you?

PLS do not make this personal. Just read the first page and you can easily see who brought rocker launcher and MHT into this debate.


The Scott is great. But the last thing I would nerf is it's durability. Its range is the reason it's durable. Just lengthen the reload of auto-fire, and maybe increase it's on-the-move penalty

I did not say it need a nerf in its durability, I said that combination of damage output and durability is simply too high. The unit needs to be nerfed and I have made no suggestions on how so far.
4 Mar 2019, 09:31 AM
#59
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3596 | Subs: 1

JUNE 21st 2016 BALANCE UPDATE
M8 Motor Carriage (Scott)

Developer Comments: We felt the M8 HMC was under-performing and needed a slight stat boost to improve survivability and effectiveness. The AOE drop-off for the mid-far range was lessened to improve the M8's damage output against troop targets when its shells do not land direct hits. The damage drop-off was incredibly harsh given that the mid-range of the shells are set to 2 meters.

AOE mid modifer from 0.15 to 0.25
AOE far modifier from 0.05 to 0.10
Build-time from 80 seconds to 50 seconds.
Health from 320 to 400.


This was the last change made for the M8 Motor Carriage. Health from 320 to 400 was to not have it anymore being OS by Elefant and JTiger. Since both have seen their main damage reduced to 300 maybe we could reduce Scott Health by 40 or 80.
4 Mar 2019, 09:35 AM
#60
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279



Nothing that a pair of Mortar HTs wouldn't achieve at half the price, at an earlier time in the game, only with access to WP for bonus machine gun hate.

The main gun on the scott does not outrange AT guns on autofire and the shell arc firing over obstacles gives the rounds plenty of travel time before they land. For 70 fuel invested over a Pack Howitzer (which brings considerably more hurt) it gets to be as durable as a Greyhound.

If a pair of them are laying into you thats 140fuel in the pot with zero AT potential. You should be able to work your counters appropriately.

The scott is good but it's also major tech, has a modest AoE and the barrage is only a polite request for a unit to move. Its AI falls well brlow the StuG E and Brum, it can't bounce anything, and anybody telling you to circle AT guns with it is a German trying to sabotage the allied war effort.


MHT won't be wiping squads as it flees though. You said yoirself the barrage is meh as hell and people just want it's micro tax increased.... Seems like there is an obvious direction to take this.

Aldo rifles will carry your AI until you get your AT out. The double Scott is gravy to make sure nothing is going to get out with vet.
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