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Conscript Utility

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30 Jan 2019, 13:50 PM
#21
avatar of Lago

Posts: 2626

i seen m3 driving aournd the map in under 1,5min. with a penal or flamer sit in...

this thing count as a light verhicle..

You can't seriously be equating the 222 and the Clown Car.


jump backJump back to quoted post30 Jan 2019, 13:48 PMVipper
Conscripts are simply not that bad.

In addition there was a time conscript spam was a viable and it was not a good time for the game.

Soviet have allot of different options and thus their design should promote building a combination of squad instead spamming only conscript or spamming only maxims or spamming only Penals.

So... we're in agreement, then?
30 Jan 2019, 13:58 PM
#22
avatar of FK9DD

Posts: 41

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Jan 2019, 13:48 PMVipper

their design should promote building a combination of squad instead spamming only conscript or spamming only maxims or spamming only Penals.

problem is that maxim is also bad,not like it's trash,just timing,fragility and weak suppression
so you can't make mixes with this units(you can but that's a stick in wheels)
30 Jan 2019, 14:00 PM
#23
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3086 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Jan 2019, 13:48 PMVipper

Conscripts are simply not that bad.

In addition there was a time conscript spam was a viable and it was not a good time for the game.

Soviet have allot of different options and thus their design should promote building a combination of squad instead spamming only conscript or spamming only maxims or spamming only Penals.

For cost cons are that bad. They are blown way out of the water by volks and lose out on grens as the game progresses as well. They do get insane durability boosts by full vet, but that just turns them into a KV tank with m42 AT gun in top because while they can stick around, there is little effect to the enemy in doing so. Their main role, oorahing AT nade has been nerfed (orrah price up) and isn't even possible with their acquiring price, they need nearly a whole tier worth of resources JUST for the AT nade.

We don't want con spam again, but as their side techs are its honestly the only way to make them cost effective (the upgrades that is) you don't want to spend 125mp and 25 fuel on AT nades so 1 or 2 squads can snare maybe at some point. Iirc the same price gives grenades and/or smoke to every single usf squad in their core teching. And people STILL say it's not cost effective.

Cons are in a bad spot and need a redesign. They were supposed to be the glue that holds the faction together, but maybe we can turn them into an oil that keeps the Soviet war machine running smoothly instead?
30 Jan 2019, 14:07 PM
#24
avatar of FK9DD

Posts: 41


For cost cons are that bad. They are blown way out of the water by volks and lose out on grens as the game progresses as well. They do get insane durability boosts by full vet, but that just turns them into a KV tank with m42 AT gun in top because while they can stick around, there is little effect to the enemy in doing so. Their main role, oorahing AT nade has been nerfed (orrah price up) and isn't even possible with their acquiring price, they need nearly a whole tier worth of resources JUST for the AT nade.

We don't want con spam again, but as their side techs are its honestly the only way to make them cost effective (the upgrades that is) you don't want to spend 125mp and 25 fuel on AT nades so 1 or 2 squads can snare maybe at some point. Iirc the same price gives grenades and/or smoke to every single usf squad in their core teching. And people STILL say it's not cost effective.

Cons are in a bad spot and need a redesign. They were supposed to be the glue that holds the faction together, but maybe we can turn them into an oil that keeps the Soviet war machine running smoothly instead?

Cons not that bad in ostheer matchup,they can fight grens,but okw volks just better in every way..and okw starting with pios who can in worst case trade with cons,and sometimes rng happens and they can beat 2 of them
30 Jan 2019, 14:28 PM
#25
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6199 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Jan 2019, 13:58 PMFK9DD

problem is that maxim is also bad,not like it's trash,just timing,fragility and weak suppression
so you can't make mixes with this units(you can but that's a stick in wheels)

I don't think so.

Imo it has more to do with the fact that too many powerful units are simply available too early turning the game more into who can provide more brute force earlier than actually playing tactical and using combined arms.

Unit like SP, VG with incendiary grenades/ST44, JLI, Ass. Engineer, Pathfinder, Cav Riflemen, 0.5 come way to early for the power level they have.

Imo unit that available early should be balanced around the power level of grenadier. And Conscript actually are.
30 Jan 2019, 14:45 PM
#26
avatar of FK9DD

Posts: 41

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Jan 2019, 14:28 PMVipper

I don't think so.

Imo it has more to do with the fact that too many powerful units are simply available too early turning the game more into who can provide more brute force earlier than actually playing tactical and using combined arms.

Unit like SP, VG with incendiary grenades/ST44, JLI, Ass. Engineer, Pathfinder, Cav Riflemen, 0.5 come way to early for the power level they have.

Imo unit that available early should be balanced around the power level of grenadier. And Conscript actually are.

nerf everything to a trash level or up underperforming units to a OPshit,what relic will do?:unsure:
30 Jan 2019, 14:57 PM
#27
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6199 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Jan 2019, 14:45 PMFK9DD

nerf everything to a trash level or up underperforming units to a OPshit,what relic will do?:unsure:

Yes it was Relic approach when they designed the changes.
Unfortunately the trend continued even when Relic stopped designing the Patches.

Usually after any major balance patch you will find at least one unit/ability that is blatantly OP and some times one unit that is useless.
30 Jan 2019, 15:40 PM
#28
avatar of BeastHunter

Posts: 169



i seen m3 driving aournd the map in under 1,5min. with a penal or flamer sit in...

this thing count as a light verhicle..


Hence the sidenote "beside the M3A1"
Phy
30 Jan 2019, 16:24 PM
#29
avatar of Phy

Posts: 509 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Jan 2019, 20:45 PMKatitof

To fix a problem you need to identify it properly first, which you have failed to despite it being highlighted for....... 3 years now? 4?

^
jump backJump back to quoted post29 Jan 2019, 20:45 PMKatitof

Give conscripts useful weapon upgrade, even locked behind late tier side tech and you'll see them in almost every single game, I can guarantee you that.

+1.
30 Jan 2019, 18:02 PM
#30
avatar of RoastinGhost

Posts: 266

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Jan 2019, 14:28 PMVipper

Imo unit that available early should be balanced around the power level of grenadier. And Conscript actually are.


Sure, but the problem isn't the beginning of the game, it's the scaling. The point of weapon upgrades is to trade MP more efficiently. When conscripts lack them, they get left in the dust because their cost-effectiveness is bad compared to upgraded squads.

Conscripts need help late-game, and I think the best way to improve their cost-effectiveness is to lower their cost over the course of the game. Every other faction has weapon upgrades, and there's room to design this in a way that doesn't lead to more faction mirroring.
30 Jan 2019, 18:10 PM
#31
avatar of WingZero

Posts: 1364

Gib Cons DP light machine guns after T4 tech upgrade. Jesus, even the Ostruppen got an LMG upgrade after T4.
30 Jan 2019, 18:13 PM
#32
avatar of FK9DD

Posts: 41



Sure, but the problem isn't the beginning of the game, it's the scaling. The point of weapon upgrades is to trade MP more efficiently. When conscripts lack them, they get left in the dust because their cost-effectiveness is bad compared to upgraded squads.

Conscripts need help late-game, and I think the best way to improve their cost-effectiveness is to lower their cost over the course of the game. Every other faction has weapon upgrades, and there's room to design this in a way that doesn't lead to more faction mirroring.

They actually better than grens,volks with vet(if no weapon upgrades involved,even without weapons they do something and if somehow they get lmg they become best squad on map.
Problem is exactly beginning of the game when they at their worst.Lowering mp cost is really bad idea if some ppl can remember cpt.price streams with 20 squads of royal engineers with around 13 mp reinforce
30 Jan 2019, 18:24 PM
#33
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3086 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Jan 2019, 18:13 PMFK9DD

They actually better than grens,volks with vet(if no weapon upgrades involved,even without weapons they do something and if somehow they get lmg they become best squad on map.
Problem is exactly beginning of the game when they at their worst.Lowering mp cost is really bad idea if some ppl can remember cpt.price streams with 20 squads of royal engineers with around 13 mp reinforce


Conscripts late game a certainly not better than grens or volks, because as all of them are getting more durable grens and volks are ALSO doing more damage to offset that. Additionally if I recall properly (and I may be misremebering) cons get a nerfed lmg when they pick one up, so the impact is greatly lessened over the way it used to be.

At any rate saying without weapon upgrades isn't a good metric because both volks and grens WILL have weapon upgrades, it's creating a scenario that cons would win that won't happen in game.

As for the RE thing:
Firstly Cons cost 20mp per man and don't get that cut at any point. Even if they dropper 1mp per tech building which would be the most one might suggest they would still cost 16 per man, which is more than their weapon crews even.

Secondly RE have access to weapon racks making them punch WELL above their price point at launch and managing to cover AT as well. The flexibility AND lack of bleed is what made the sappers so strong.
30 Jan 2019, 18:46 PM
#34
avatar of FK9DD

Posts: 41



Conscripts late game a certainly not better than grens or volks, because as all of them are getting more durable grens and volks are ALSO doing more damage to offset that. Additionally if I recall properly (and I may be misremebering) cons get a nerfed lmg when they pick one up, so the impact is greatly lessened over the way it used to be.

At any rate saying without weapon upgrades isn't a good metric because both volks and grens WILL have weapon upgrades, it's creating a scenario that cons would win that won't happen in game.

As for the RE thing:
Firstly Cons cost 20mp per man and don't get that cut at any point. Even if they dropper 1mp per tech building which would be the most one might suggest they would still cost 16 per man, which is more than their weapon crews even.

Secondly RE have access to weapon racks making them punch WELL above their price point at launch and managing to cover AT as well. The flexibility AND lack of bleed is what made the sappers so strong.

at vet grens have only 0.30 dps more that conscript and 0.1 less target size,but conscript have 2 models more with makes their dps and durability much higher,vet3 cons beats vet3 grens at any range
i mentioned that only for those who thinks adding lategame lmg,because it's also bad idea,they just gonna overperform any of base infantry.Even if you give them 1 dp they gonna be better than guards A LOT already,because cons vets just insane
Even with trashy ppsh upgrade they can fuck everything,if there going to be any other LMG stock upgrade they gonna be new JLI
30 Jan 2019, 19:00 PM
#35
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3086 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Jan 2019, 18:46 PMFK9DD

at vet grens have only 0.30 dps more that conscript and 0.1 less target size,but conscript have 2 models more with makes their dps and durability much higher,vet3 cons beats vet3 grens at any range
i mentioned that only for those who thinks adding lategame lmg,because it's also bad idea,they just gonna overperform any of base infantry.Even if you give them 1 dp they gonna be better than guards A LOT already,because cons vets just insane
Even with trashy ppsh upgrade they can fuck everything,if there going to be any other LMG stock upgrade they gonna be new JLI


I very much don't want them to get a stock weapon upgrade. But comparing their stats to those that WILL have one is misleading. At any rate if they DID get an lmg it would be the dp28, and a pair of them is only 75mu for a reason--they are the worst MG in the game. That's another reason I wouldn't want it, it would be a token buff that would sap diversity and not even be that good.
30 Jan 2019, 19:18 PM
#36
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 6220 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Jan 2019, 18:46 PMFK9DD

at vet grens have only 0.30 dps more that conscript and 0.1 less target size,but conscript have 2 models more with makes their dps and durability much higher,vet3 cons beats vet3 grens at any range
i mentioned that only for those who thinks adding lategame lmg,because it's also bad idea,they just gonna overperform any of base infantry.Even if you give them 1 dp they gonna be better than guards A LOT already,because cons vets just insane
Even with trashy ppsh upgrade they can fuck everything,if there going to be any other LMG stock upgrade they gonna be new JLI


From where did you get those stats? Cause even if they are 4vs6 models, Gren squad have higher damage output. They have the same offensive vet.

Vet 3 fights with stock weapons are in favour of conscripts because they get -40% RA vs -23% RA but still, the number is off.

Conscripts have 1.09 RA which translates to 0.654 at vet 3
Grens are 0.91 >> 0.7007


PD: i don't want LMG conscripts even if it's a DP28.
30 Jan 2019, 20:53 PM
#37
avatar of murky depths

Posts: 594



i seen m3 driving aournd the map in under 1,5min. with a penal or flamer sit in...

this thing count as a light verhicle..


Is it even possible to get enough munitions to build a flamer 90 seconds into the game?
30 Jan 2019, 21:03 PM
#38
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 1430



From where did you get those stats? Cause even if they are 4vs6 models, Gren squad have higher damage output. They have the same offensive vet.

Vet 3 fights with stock weapons are in favour of conscripts because they get -40% RA vs -23% RA but still, the number is off.

Conscripts have 1.09 RA which translates to 0.654 at vet 3
Grens are 0.91 >> 0.7007


PD: i don't want LMG conscripts even if it's a DP28.



The real vet 3 stats are: Cons 0.71 and Grens 0.7
30 Jan 2019, 22:08 PM
#39
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6199 | Subs: 1


... Additionally if I recall properly (and I may be misremebering) cons get a nerfed lmg when they pick one up, so the impact is greatly lessened over the way it used to be.
...

Nope that happens to Osttruppen, conscript simply have only 1 weapon slot (oddly even when they get the PPSh as far as I can remember).
31 Jan 2019, 00:16 AM
#40
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3086 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Jan 2019, 22:08 PMVipper

Nope that happens to Osttruppen, conscript simply have only 1 weapon slot (oddly even when they get the PPSh as far as I can remember).

Ok, as always thanks for setting me straight.
Side bar, do g43s lock out weapon slots too? Or is it just a volks stg thing?
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