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Conscript Utility

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What should require the anti-infantry sidetech? (Molotov Package, 80 MP, 10 FU)
Option Distribution Votes
28%
8%
15%
42%
6%
What should require the anti-tank sidetech? (Anti-Tank Grenade Package, 125 MP, 25 FU)
Option Distribution Votes
24%
17%
20%
34%
4%
Total votes: 141
Vote VOTE! Vote ABSTAIN
29 Jan 2019, 15:35 PM
#1
avatar of Lago

Posts: 1538

Time for a rarity on the Balance Forum: Soviet versus... itself?



Conscripts are often described as a utility unit: they've got strong support abilities, they're durable and they're cheap to reinforce, but their combat power is pretty low compared to their counterparts in other factions.

I really like that 'toolkit squad' design, but in practice there's a problem: those utility abilites are locked behind 205 MP 35 FU worth of sidetech, and the equivalent Penal Troops abilities aren't.

That strongly encourages T1 to go all-in on Penal Troops. The saved manpower offsets the cost difference, and that 35 FU saved is a 35 FU faster T-70.

Wouldn't it be nicer to have mixed infantry rather than encouraging SOV to go all-in on one type?

There are two ways to reduce this disparity.
  • Unlock some Conscript abilities from the sidetech.
  • Lock some Penal abilities behind the sidetech.


Personally, I favour locking Penal Troops snares behind the sidetech, and unlocking Conscript Molotovs entirely.

The snare sidetech is a meaningful decision when Penal AT satchels aren't available: you exchange anti-tank utility now for delaying your next vehicle.

Unlocking the Molotov for free is a nice buff to the currently meh combat capability of Conscripts, but the munitions drain stops it buffing the PPSh Conscript build too much.

It's also a ninja buff to Tank Hunter Tactics, which'd then be the only way to skip snare tech without sacrificing snares.
29 Jan 2019, 15:48 PM
#2
avatar of Crecer13

Posts: 1109 | Subs: 2

For me, conscripts are needed only for one main reason: to throw an anti-tank grenade. Sometimes if I see an abandoned PAK-40 or a HMG-42, I build a new conscript squad seize what I need to merge the remnants. Conscripts as the main infantry? Absolutely useless, they are even poorly suited to the role of support squad. Osttruppen doing the same thing but cheaper and without paid upgrades.

I think hammers and anti-tank grenade should be a single upgrade.
29 Jan 2019, 15:52 PM
#3
avatar of adamírcz

Posts: 594 | Subs: 1

I think the molotov should be a side tech, since there is actually a good chance to do well without it, cause you can (and probably should) be heavily relying on double flamer engineers.
So there is a bit of thinkin whether the engies can handle the anti-garrison/cover duty or whether a sniper/mortar will do that, or if you really should get the molotovs


Meanwhile, trying to play without snares is a big no no, so the cons might as well get AT nades from the start.

The Penal AT satchel should either stay as it is, or require a side tech, but once you side-tech, you should be able to unlock it without downgrading them with the attrocious PTRSes
29 Jan 2019, 17:34 PM
#4
avatar of BeastHunter

Posts: 131

I just think the AT-Package is a bit too expensive if it would be at 80 mp 10 fuel aswell it wouldn't delay the t70 as bad as it does currently but i think then it or even both grenades should go on (atleast a short 2-3s) cooldown after "Hurrah" has been used to avoid soviet grenades from overperforming compared to other snares and grenades.
29 Jan 2019, 17:57 PM
#5
avatar of Tactical Imouto

Posts: 171

Give AT nade assault by default to make up for the lack of non-doctrinal weapons of course
29 Jan 2019, 20:30 PM
#6
avatar of RoastinGhost

Posts: 171

I think that AT Nades and Molotovs should lower reinforce cost for conscripts by 1 each. It would make the upgrades a better deal, reduce bleed for heavy use of conscripts, and make conscripts more effective without encroaching on the penal squad's "good dps" territory. The lower cost could be mutually exclusive with the PPSh upgrade, which could then be a bit less expensive.
29 Jan 2019, 20:45 PM
#7
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 12070 | Subs: 6

Its not molos and at nades that make people go for T1.....

Its maxim and conscripts being weak beyond shit tier themselves....

To fix a problem you need to identify it properly first, which you have failed to despite it being highlighted for....... 3 years now? 4?

As long as conscripts will NOT scale into the late game as COMBAT UNIT it will NOT BE USED.

You can't kill anything with "utility", you do it with weapons, preferably upgraded for late game combat, which cons aren't allowed to have.

Give conscripts useful weapon upgrade, even locked behind late tier side tech and you'll see them in almost every single game, I can guarantee you that.
29 Jan 2019, 21:01 PM
#8
avatar of adamírcz

Posts: 594 | Subs: 1

I think that AT Nades and Molotovs should lower reinforce cost for conscripts by 1 each. It would make the upgrades a better deal, reduce bleed for heavy use of conscripts, and make conscripts more effective without encroaching on the penal squad's "good dps" territory. The lower cost could be mutually exclusive with the PPSh upgrade, which could then be a bit less expensive.


Well, thats a good and creative idea
29 Jan 2019, 21:33 PM
#9
avatar of murky depths

Posts: 385

I don't get why people propose so many convoluted hidden-mechanic solutions when just a weapon upgrade will do fine.

30 Jan 2019, 03:04 AM
#10
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 1979 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Jan 2019, 20:45 PMKatitof
Its not molos and at nades that make people go for T1.....

Its maxim and conscripts being weak beyond shit tier themselves....

To fix a problem you need to identify it properly first, which you have failed to despite it being highlighted for....... 3 years now? 4?

As long as conscripts will NOT scale into the late game as COMBAT UNIT it will NOT BE USED.

You can't kill anything with "utility", you do it with weapons, preferably upgraded for late game combat, which cons aren't allowed to have.

Give conscripts useful weapon upgrade, even locked behind late tier side tech and you'll see them in almost every single game, I can guarantee you that.

They don't NEED a weapon to scale, but they need some attention to. It could be small things with each tier that improve them, make them cheaper, improve their abilities. Make them attractive and remain unique. The
30 Jan 2019, 07:03 AM
#11
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 1550

i dont get why ppl complaining about side tech fuel costs.

pls take a calcualtor and calc the following:

ost tech t1 and build t1 = ?
sov build t1 and tech nades + molos = ?

30 Jan 2019, 08:18 AM
#12
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 12070 | Subs: 6


They don't NEED a weapon to scale, but they need some attention to. It could be small things with each tier that improve them, make them cheaper, improve their abilities. Make them attractive and remain unique. The

Their doctrinal abilities are fine where they are.
Their stock abilities, outside of oorah being nerfed hard(doubled the cost) are also ok.
AT nades are fine, molos are just bad, vet2 bonus makes them better, but by that time there are weapon upgrades on field, making the bonus throw speed not that relevant.

To be honest, I can see no other choice but either T3/T4 stock weapon upgrade or a price cut up to 30 mp(10 will do nothing and everyone knows it, it needs to be significant enough to make a difference in field presence).

There is hardly anything unique about the squad, except for the fact that they are "doctrinal stock infantry" and why? Because unless you go specific ppsh doctrine, they are unusable and people tried and tried hard, failed each time.
30 Jan 2019, 10:11 AM
#13
avatar of Lago

Posts: 1538

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Jan 2019, 07:03 AMullumulu
i dont get why ppl complaining about side tech fuel costs.

pls take a calcualtor and calc the following:

ost tech t1 and build t1 = ?
sov build t1 and tech nades + molos = ?



Ost T1 costs, what, 100 MP 10 FU? It's one of the cheapest structures in the game.
If you meant Ost T2, that's light vehicle tech.

The issue is a Penal build pays 10 FU, and a Conscript build pays between 35 and 55.
30 Jan 2019, 11:03 AM
#14
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 12070 | Subs: 6

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Jan 2019, 10:11 AMLago


Ost T1 costs, what, 100 MP 10 FU? It's one of the cheapest structures in the game.
If you meant Ost T2, that's light vehicle tech.

The issue is a Penal build pays 10 FU, and a Conscript build pays between 35 and 55.

That really is irrelevant...
The unit does not perform well and does not scale, this is why people don't build cons.
If penals had all these upgrades and cons started with molos and AT nades unlocked, people would STILL go for penals only, because penals can actually fight.
30 Jan 2019, 12:23 PM
#15
avatar of Lago

Posts: 1538

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Jan 2019, 11:03 AMKatitof
That really is irrelevant...
The unit does not perform well and does not scale, this is why people don't build cons.
If penals had all these upgrades and cons started with molos and AT nades unlocked, people would STILL go for penals only, because penals can actually fight.


I'm not so certain. Penal/Conscript synergy is pretty good.

  • Conscripts can build cover and can deny enemy cover with cheap molotovs.
  • Conscripts are a better flanking squad than Penals using Oorah.
  • Penals lose very little from having Conscripts merge into them, reducing manpower bleed and helping with field presence.
  • The Conscript AT nade is much easier to fire than the Penal satchel, creating synergy between AT Penals and Conscripts.


That synergy could well be worth mixing some Conscripts into a Penal Troops composition if didn't come with a 205 MP 35 FU resource penalty.
30 Jan 2019, 13:03 PM
#16
avatar of FK9DD

Posts: 22

Yeah but are you really need flanking trash if you can have penals who beating any german unit at any range?or maybe m3 who can destroy your flanks for 190 mp?
There is more,you need buy upgrades for "deny enemy cover with cheap molotovs" also not that "cheap" anymore.
Sandbags are for what?defenses are good and all but you can pay extra 60mp and get squad who doesn't need to hide behind that,they just always on the move.So cons just building it for himself?or for enemy longrange units?
There is just no reason to pick cons over penals or using them in mix,everything thats cons doing is just worthless or penals can do better
30 Jan 2019, 13:08 PM
#17
avatar of Lago

Posts: 1538

If Conscripts really are that bad, isn't that even more reason not to hamstring them further by gating their abilities and their abilities alone behind sidetech?
30 Jan 2019, 13:37 PM
#18
avatar of BeastHunter

Posts: 131

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Jan 2019, 07:03 AMullumulu
i dont get why ppl complaining about side tech fuel costs.

pls take a calcualtor and calc the following:

ost tech t1 and build t1 = ?
sov build t1 and tech nades + molos = ?



It is all about the T70 timing if you tech molotovs and at-grenades first the t70 will arrive pretty late and has troubles countering a p2 or let alone a 251 with flamers or maybe even a 222. Soviets do not have light vehicles in their tier 2 their light vehicle phase (beside the m3a1) starts after axis light vehicles and is bound to the third tier.
30 Jan 2019, 13:48 PM
#19
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 1550



It is all about the T70 timing if you tech molotovs and at-grenades first the t70 will arrive pretty late and has troubles countering a p2 or let alone a 251 with flamers or maybe even a 222. Soviets do not have light vehicles in their tier 2 their light vehicle phase (beside the m3a1) starts after axis light vehicles and is bound to the third tier.


i seen m3 driving aournd the map in under 1,5min. with a penal or flamer sit in...

this thing count as a light verhicle..
30 Jan 2019, 13:48 PM
#20
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 4494 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Jan 2019, 13:08 PMLago
If Conscripts really are that bad, isn't that even more reason not to hamstring them further by gating their abilities and their abilities alone behind sidetech?

Conscripts are simply not that bad.

In addition there was a time conscript spam was a viable and it was not a good time for the game.

Soviet have allot of different options and thus their design should promote building a combination of squad instead spamming only conscript or spamming only maxims or spamming only Penals.
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