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Conscript Utility

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10 Feb 2019, 21:04 PM
#61
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 1637

I really dont get why people cry so much because an axis factions has an OK infantry...
Riflemen are great all around. Conscripts are bad all around. Thats that, no need for further discussion.
If you want to fix cons, then fix cons. Volks are not their counter, but their competent counterpart.
10 Feb 2019, 21:25 PM
#62
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3122 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Feb 2019, 20:45 PMVipper


Yet the benchmark was and should be again grenadiers and not volks.

Which is why I don't want performance buffs, just cost effeciency buffs as cons have been underwhelming in that regard for a time. A unit that is designed to not actually be a front line unit shouldn't be priced the same as those that are.

Also if it's the volks match up that's the issue it makes sense to use it as context because buffing cons to address the volks match-up breaks the grens matchup, then you buff grens to match up against cons and it breaks other matchup. Volks are over performing compared to units more expensive and relatively priced making possibly well balanced units underperform relatively.
10 Feb 2019, 21:31 PM
#63
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6244 | Subs: 1


Which is why I don't want performance buffs, just cost effeciency buffs as cons have been underwhelming in that regard for a time. A unit that is designed to not actually be a front line unit shouldn't be priced the same as those that are.

Also if it's the volks match up that's the issue it makes sense to use it as context because buffing cons to address the volks match-up breaks the grens matchup, then you buff grens to match up against cons and it breaks other matchup. Volks are over performing compared to units more expensive and relatively priced making possibly well balanced units underperform relatively.

And that is why VG should be toned down before these buffs to the USF and UKF that sent balance into another spiral.

Balance changes should be made vs a benchmark faction which is Ostheer in this case.

One should first toned down VG (and penals) and then see if conscripts need any change.
10 Feb 2019, 23:35 PM
#64
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 313

I really dont get why people cry so much because an axis factions has an OK infantry...
Riflemen are great all around. Conscripts are bad all around. Thats that, no need for further discussion.
If you want to fix cons, then fix cons. Volks are not their counter, but their competent counterpart.


And yet volks counter cons quite handely.

How cons are so much worse for just 10 mp. While for 30 mp less then tommies and rifles volks can hold their own against them is just wrong.
Cons dont need fixing. Volks tommies rifles need toning down
11 Feb 2019, 00:24 AM
#65
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 1637


...How cons are so much worse for just 10 mp...

Listen to me now. Do OKM have a clowcar? Cheap T-70 tanks and overkill doctrinal mega-tanks? Do OKM have Katyushas? Do OKM have penals/guards rifle with higly mobile infantry AT?

If you ansewered no, then we are going on the right track

Each faction has a different desing, therefore 10mp for OKM means something totally different for SU. Same goes with reinforce cost and timings.

Also remember SU belongs to the allied factions, hence some synergies are exclusive to them.

Now, lets stop whining about costs of each single soldier and the typical "1V1" situation, since it wont change the course of a match if you dont take account propper strategies and playstyles.

Cons are great catching up fast vehicles, OKM has a lot of them until lategame, so does ostheer. No one is complaining about volks being poor snaring allied vehicles. See? Complaint for the sake of it only brings up noise and get everyone in the forums a little less tolerating to others.

The thread is going towards unlocking an ability so sidetech is not that punishing, keep going that way now and forget that BS of "my enemy is better, so it must be his fault"
11 Feb 2019, 00:43 AM
#66
avatar of insaneHoshi

Posts: 911

Perhaps when obers come in at 4 minutes we can really say that Volks and cons should be compared equally.
11 Feb 2019, 04:49 AM
#67
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3122 | Subs: 1

why would we possibly compare t0 infantry that can build sandbags, snare, throw flame nades and are more durable than average? cant for the life of me figure out why....

you say about cons catching up to tanks and ignore that to actually do anything they need another 125mp and 25 fuel (more than the clown car, btw)

you also ignore that volks start with sturm pios that obliterate any starter unit that can catch at mid range and close on, you ignore that they always have AT no matter how they tech, and an mg too, you ignore that okw has a 210mp fast capping scout unit that COULD make up for lost ground if their infantry were more expensive and most importantly you are ignoring that okw can afford to build whatever bloody unit they please from the word go.

volks dont NEED to thrash cons and be comparable to rifles because they have all the support they could dream of from a second 0 shock unit to late game super grens. ober timing could afford to be adjusted but there is no reason for volks to act like lite riflemen, and certainly not for 250mp
11 Feb 2019, 05:28 AM
#68
avatar of cochosgo

Posts: 274

The OP brings a new twist to the discussion about conscripts being a subpar mainline.

Conscript utility depends on sidetechs that delay the T70 (and I also make the case for the M5 and the quad upgrade having almost no stoping power as a supression plataform). And thus, penal builds not only are more efficient in manpower but also on fuel.

I also agree with DarkArmadillo in that OKW needs to be looked at before anything else. Cons matchup against grens works fine for the most part (because we have to take into account maxims being subpar as a supression unit and inefficient for the amount of fuel, time and manpower its spent on them).

Some freebies for cons wouldn't hurt. But I think it would be better to give them more bang for their buck on sidetech.

On the topic about giving them a non doc weapon upgrade I think a pair of SVTs in the mid to late game will be enought, as it wouldn't overlap with guards, and the unit will remain a mobile/flexible unit, but i fear they may become fearsome in conjuction with ppsh.
11 Feb 2019, 05:55 AM
#69
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 1637

...
you also ignore that volks start with sturm pios that obliterate any starter unit that can catch at mid range and close on, you ignore that they always have AT no matter how they tech, and an mg too, you ignore that okw has a 210mp fast capping scout unit that COULD make up for lost ground if their infantry were more expensive and most importantly you are ignoring that okw can afford to build whatever bloody unit they please from the word go.

volks dont NEED to thrash cons and be comparable to rifles because they have all the support they could dream of from a second 0 shock unit to late game super grens. ober timing could afford to be adjusted but there is no reason for volks to act like lite riflemen, and certainly not for 250mp

If only ONE word of all you said were true. Sadly its not. And if you're ok repeating the same lies time and time again just to force your mind to believe its true, go ahead. Im not wasting my time speaking to deaf ears...

If just one sentence about volks were true, then why are we not seeing OKM roflstomping in all skill levels? Why are you not taking advantage of such easy oportunity to get to Top10 OKM?

Costs doesnt reflect performance, it balances it. Period. Volks are balanced as long as you dont like it.
And please stop derailing OP topic. Give cons some love.
11 Feb 2019, 10:39 AM
#70
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 2605 | Subs: 1

I'm pretty sure removing that 100 manpower OKW get for free early game would do good for all. Actually it allows OKW to outspam any other faction with a 4th volks without downsides.
This change would give Soviet more presence on the field with Cons.
11 Feb 2019, 16:52 PM
#71
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 313

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Feb 2019, 10:39 AMEsxile
I'm pretty sure removing that 100 manpower OKW get for free early game would do good for all. Actually it allows OKW to outspam any other faction with a 4th volks without downsides.
This change would give Soviet more presence on the field with Cons.


Just take away the sandbags, such a durable long range unit should not have such a abilty. replace incindiary grenade with a normal one. make self heal an active vet ability. Make stg block out the salvage ability so its not the pinnacle of no brainer upgrades.

Give incindiary gren and sandbags to sturms. More reason to build a second sturm squad.

11 Feb 2019, 17:16 PM
#72
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 1637



Just take away the sandbags, such a durable long range unit should not have such a abilty. replace incindiary grenade with a normal one. make self heal an active vet ability. Make stg block out the salvage ability so its not the pinnacle of no brainer upgrades.

Give incindiary gren and sandbags to sturms. More reason to build a second sturm squad.



But then remove conscript sandbags too, since they are too cheap for such ability, increase their ammu cost for their AT nades and molos because they are too cost effective for 15/25 muni. For riflemen remove double BARs, only one, same goes for zookas. All doctrinal upgrades for riflemen are removed too, they already excel in infantry combat, no need for further improvements. Finally remove IS buff on cover, and double Brens, reduce their move acc, they are meant to be defensive troops, not blob terminators.

Edit: Sturms are glass cannons, paper armour soldiers. Dont even talk about them if you dont understand the current game.

And after all that what you get is a crap of game no one wants to play, congratulations. All bcos you cant follow the thread topics, conscript utility buff.

2Edit: The removal of 100 Mp for OKM sounded great, the problem its not volks but its 4th squad that outnumbers other mainlines inf.
11 Feb 2019, 17:59 PM
#73
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 313



But then remove conscript sandbags too, since they are too cheap for such ability, increase their ammu cost for their AT nades and molos because they are too cost effective for 15/25 muni. For riflemen remove double BARs, only one, same goes for zookas. All doctrinal upgrades for riflemen are removed too, they already excel in infantry combat, no need for further improvements. Finally remove IS buff on cover, and double Brens, reduce their move acc, they are meant to be defensive troops, not blob terminators.

Edit: Sturms are glass cannons, paper armour soldiers. Dont even talk about them if you dont understand the current game.

And after all that what you get is a crap of game no one wants to play, congratulations. All bcos you cant follow the thread topics, conscript utility buff.

2Edit: The removal of 100 Mp for OKM sounded great, the problem its not volks but its 4th squad that outnumbers other mainlines inf.


Sandbags are utility cons are utility troops volks clearly are not.
Just like rifles are not. Rifles are flexible in their combat functionality. So removing double bars and zooks is not the answer. Taking on their vet or dps per bar is.
Dont charge sturm out in the open from long range into the enemy. They are not designed that way.

Stop being childish, remove those earcaps and blinders and think out of your box for once.
Cons are balanced and grens are too. If you fix cons grens will suffer. Volks rifles and tommies all overpreform in some way.
11 Feb 2019, 18:44 PM
#74
avatar of insaneHoshi

Posts: 911



Sandbags are utility cons are utility troops volks clearly are not.
Just like rifles are not. Rifles are flexible in their combat functionality. So removing double bars and zooks is not the answer. Taking on their vet or dps per bar is.
Dont charge sturm out in the open from long range into the enemy. They are not designed that way.

Stop being childish, remove those earcaps and blinders and think out of your box for once.
Cons are balanced and grens are too. If you fix cons grens will suffer. Volks rifles and tommies all overpreform in some way.


Then you'll of course remove sandbags, trenches, flares and heals from tommies as they arnt utility troops either?

Then we can remove satchels from penals too, because they arnt utility troops either.

All in all saying that "combat" units can't have "utility" abilities is a useless statement as what constitutes those terms is arbitrary.
11 Feb 2019, 19:05 PM
#75
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 1637

...
Stop being childish, remove those earcaps and blinders and think out of your box for once.
Cons are balanced and grens are too. If you fix cons grens will suffer. Volks rifles and tommies all overpreform in some way.


The fact that some OKM player handed your ass to you with volks and you pretending to nerf them to fix cons problems is rather childish. There is no clear relation or line between cons sucking and volks.

11 Feb 2019, 19:35 PM
#76
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 313



Then you'll of course remove sandbags, trenches, flares and heals from tommies as they arnt utility troops either?

Then we can remove satchels from penals too, because they arnt utility troops either.

All in all saying that "combat" units can't have "utility" abilities is a useless statement as what constitutes those terms is arbitrary.


I am not saying combat troops cant have it. Ill try to explain it.
Rifles are really good at combat but only have one utility wich is a snare at vet 1. Aka a balancing factor. And rifles total cost is higher then volks total cost.
You pay a lot more for everthing tommies get. And tommies lack a snare but can call arty.

Volks are dirt cheap for what they bring to the table. They are underpriced.
11 Feb 2019, 19:45 PM
#77
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 313



The fact that some OKM player handed your ass to you with volks and you pretending to nerf them to fix cons problems is rather childish. There is no clear relation or line between cons sucking and volks.



I try to be reasonable here. You say take all and everthing aways just because volks loose the sandbags. That is childish. Instead you can say no because..insert counter point..

Cons dont suck overall. Cons suck vs volks. While mostly filling the excact same role. Snare, anti cover, sandbags, saving on mp or muni/fuel in okws case, cons grant staying power volks do it on their own with self heal. The only real difference is combat.in wich volks excel greatly when compared.

If volks would not be so effecient penals would be spammed less and cons would be ussefull vs okw.

But you keep believing your imo flawed idea when volks are just peachy.
11 Feb 2019, 23:06 PM
#78
avatar of Grim

Posts: 753

Jesus this is getting painful.

Now to make it worse.

I think that people are right in saying that volks/okw starting MP could be looked at to help ease some balance issues.

As for cons? You can make them cheaper and give them all the utility you like. I'm still building penals as actually being able to kill enemy units proves more useful than dying a bit more slowly at vet3 for cons.
12 Feb 2019, 01:30 AM
#79
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3122 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Feb 2019, 23:06 PMGrim
Jesus this is getting painful.

Now to make it worse.

I think that people are right in saying that volks/okw starting MP could be looked at to help ease some balance issues.

As for cons? You can make them cheaper and give them all the utility you like. I'm still building penals as actually being able to kill enemy units proves more useful than dying a bit more slowly at vet3 for cons.

There's nothing wrong with building penals, the idea is to create a scenario where cons are desired and not simply handicapping yourself. The worst part about them is that as meh as they are at the start of the game they are even worse when if you need to replace a squad because they are every bit the exact same as the game started, no weapon and same price means it's even harder to lose a squad because there is nothing to bridge the gap of vet.
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