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USF Tech Changes Mod Changelog

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16 Nov 2018, 21:40 PM
#21
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 2418 | Subs: 1

well this does eems unique with the middle tier what is similar to okw?



Yeah I don´t understand it either.
16 Nov 2018, 21:41 PM
#22
avatar of LeOverlord

Posts: 306


Answered in sanders' post. It's an upgrade.


So, they just don't let the Lieutenant to have a BAR instantly, but after 30 seconds or how long the upgrade needs to be completed.
16 Nov 2018, 21:41 PM
#23
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3276 | Subs: 1

I have been giving it a try and some early feedback.

About teching. There is a lot of possibilities I'll say, which is good:
- Lieutenant first seem to feet perfectly into 2xRE 2xRM + Lieutenant. I mean, there is no down time, you'll have the fuel right when you also have the manpower after the 2nd Riflesquad. 2x RE gives a lot of map control early game to bring the lieutenant really fast.
- 3xRM into lieutenant bring also interesting decision making. In fact you can wait a bit with 2xRM and call your lieutenant as 3rd unit but you'll be on inferiority until the lieutenant hit the field. Note that if you decide to build a 3rd RM after the lieutenant, he'll hit the field at the same time that the Lieutenant.
- 3xRM into lieutenant, you can also go the safe way and build your lieutenant after the 3rd RM.

About Lieutenant upgrade, the upgrade is available as soon as the lieutenant hit the field, 50 munition so it is a decision to take to upgrade it asap or wait to use the munition later.

About T1.5, available right when the lieutenant hit the field, 20 fuel. M20 is not far behind in fact and you'll have to considere if you want your early BAR on the lieutenant or skirt on the M20. Nice decision making option.

Fast HMG.50 will definitively be a good option to counter volks spam.

I don't know about having exchanged Stuart with M15 in this configuration you can have now HMG+M1 for 60 fuel. I think the only reason to go T2.5 would be for the pak howitzer. Hmg+Stuart is a really strong combo.

Obviously need more testing.
16 Nov 2018, 21:42 PM
#24
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 2418 | Subs: 1



So, they just don't let the Lieutenant to have a BAR instantly, but after 30 seconds or how long the upgrade needs to be completed.



Yes and most importantly it will cost you 60 muni, so you can either afford less grenades or one less bar for your infantry.
16 Nov 2018, 21:42 PM
#25
avatar of Jae For Jett
Senior Strategist Badge

Posts: 1001 | Subs: 2



So, they just don't let the Lieutenant to have a BAR instantly, but after 30 seconds or how long the upgrade needs to be completed.

Upgrade time and munitions cost, yes.
16 Nov 2018, 21:44 PM
#26
16 Nov 2018, 21:44 PM
#27
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3276 | Subs: 1



So, they just don't let the Lieutenant to have a BAR instantly, but after 30 seconds or how long the upgrade needs to be completed.


About 20 seconds maybe, On Angovile the BAR was available when the lieutenant reached the cutoff zone north coming from the north road.

@Jar, yes your are right, didn't thought about it.
16 Nov 2018, 21:44 PM
#28
avatar of Jae For Jett
Senior Strategist Badge

Posts: 1001 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Nov 2018, 21:41 PMEsxile

I don't know about having exchanged Stuart with M15 in this configuration you can have now HMG+M1 for 60 fuel. I think the only reason to go T2.5 would be for the pak howitzer. Hmg+Stuart is a really strong combo.

I think it's important to keep team games in mind too. Anti air is a lot more important in team games, as is indirect fire.
16 Nov 2018, 21:45 PM
#29
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

The AAHT is still USF's best shock unit.
16 Nov 2018, 21:47 PM
#30
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3276 | Subs: 1

Oh and new M20 is great, need 4-5 kills to reach vet1 and deal much more damage, it isn't anymore a BennyHill backward race because pfaust are more a threat than its own dps.
16 Nov 2018, 21:49 PM
#31
avatar of Stark

Posts: 623 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Nov 2018, 21:41 PMEsxile


The idea is to give all techs AT and AI tools. Before when you went Lieutenant you were heavily focus on antyinfantry weapons (HMG, m20, AAHT, Lieutenant with a bar), and captain was more AT tier (AT gun, Captain with zook, stuart). Becouse of quite expensive fuel cost of both techs it was hard to get all important support weapon on the field.

Idea and direction of this changes is good. I would also include extra expirience when you "build" tech structure like soviets/ostheer has. That would give USF possibility to bring 1CP units on the field like panthfinders. That would also make USF early game more interesting.

I would also like to point out that Stuart gonna hit the field 10 fuel earlier. Dunno if it's a good thing or bad. Needs testing.

PS: is it possible to mix M10 somehow into the new tech system? For example available after all t1 and t2 is fully upgradable
16 Nov 2018, 21:56 PM
#32
avatar of Kirrik

Posts: 573

What about Greyhound?
It comes way too late do anything on the field. Can it be placed in somewhere in those middle tiers?
That thing is legit worse than Luchs against infantry and loses to said Luchs in direct engagement. It's high CP requirements are not justified, it should get Valentine treatment now thats USF teching is being reworked
16 Nov 2018, 21:57 PM
#33
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
Director of Moderation Badge

Posts: 4046 | Subs: 3

Stuart now comes 10F cheaper. 50cal and M1 are great support teams now easily accessed. Riflemen are not being changed.

You need to be careful about these potential power spikes. You're cushioning USFs rough early game and not taking away any of their (absurd) power in the lategame. The jackson still dominates, the pershing is the best heavy in the game, HE sherman and scott are both very respectable.
16 Nov 2018, 22:03 PM
#34
avatar of Stark

Posts: 623 | Subs: 1

Just wanna add that bar upgrade for Lieutenant costs 50 ammo not 60 as it's written in changelog.

Another thing is that icon for tier 1.5 doesn't show up until you call a Lieutenant or Captain. It should be visible in the start of the game

"What about Greyhound?" Good question
16 Nov 2018, 22:08 PM
#35
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12388 | Subs: 1

At my first game I found no reason to invest fuel on anything but LT/CP/Major (and ambulance if heal was not available in other way).

Fast M8A1 is extremely strong when properly support by HMG and ATG.

AAHT/Howizter don't seem to bring much to table with a T0 mortar, neither does M20/Stuart.

With this tech path many USF units will probably have to be toned like AP rounds for HMG, M8A1 Easy8s Dozer and so on.

Airborne/Recon support commanders will to be redesigned.
16 Nov 2018, 22:08 PM
#36
avatar of mondeogaming1

Posts: 464

16 Nov 2018, 22:16 PM
#37
avatar of ZombiFrancis

Posts: 2742

I am all for revisiting the teching structures of USF.

I do think the captain upgrade, the "2.5" tech tier seems like a terrible option.

Unlocking both officers seem like the safest and most viable option. USF with easy and cheap access to HMGs and ATGs won't have to worry about any shock value units from either axis faction.

This may be a good thing. I just question how valuable investing 20 fuel in either 0.5 tech tier would be in comparison.

Unless the initial LT and CPTN unlock did not call in asquad and the 0.5 upgrade called in does. But that doesn't seem to be the case.

I'm interested. These are the kinds of things that have needed to have been addressed for a long while. Way more than novelty commanders.
16 Nov 2018, 22:23 PM
#38
avatar of TheGentlemenTroll

Posts: 1038 | Subs: 1



This is a simple question I ask people every time I read "BuT thEy ArE tOo SimiliAR!11!!"

Do you want a balanced game or do you want an asymmetric game, because you can't have both as time and time again has proven.

You want examples? The USF was given the mortar team while the OKW was given the MG34 and they swapped out the Sturmtiger for the Panzer IV. Why? Because the Armies were badly designed and needed these changes. This is also why the UKF got their AT snare for the Sappers but also needs a mobile mortar in my opinion and it's also why the USF is getting a restructure of their tech as well.

And I will keep repeating these facts until you all get it through your thick noggins.

Anyhow, on topic. Here are some recent threads I found on the issue with some valuable feedback and suggestions in my opinion:
https://www.coh2.org/topic/83096/looking-at-usf
https://www.coh2.org/topic/83604/usf-radical-design-changes-ideas

First one is basically about the overall USF teching while the 2nd one is more or less about the officers.



I understand that people don't want the factions to play similarly but I'd personally always take a faction being slightly more similar than the faction being absolute garbage and different. USF was awful solely because of its "asymmetical" tech structure, hopefully now they will be relevant again.

I think asymmetry is possible but certain things (IE tech Structure, certain necessary units for a faction to function) should be relatively the same.
16 Nov 2018, 22:37 PM
#39
avatar of AvNY

Posts: 862



The same could be done in CoH, all Armies could be given the same basic tools and then branched out from there with different abilities, structures, units, stats and so forth, hell I have even suggested many such ideas before that incorporate all basic tools needed for a practical design yet being very different to another Army.



To some extent this was true in COH1. (I will leave vet aside.) Mixing up the tiers, and changing a little here and there the effectiveness changed US/Wehr matchup A LOT. So Axis had a mortar when they got an AT, while US didn't. The tank destroyers were different, M10 vs Stug. The Mortars and MGs had different characters as did the "riflemen" (volks/grens vs rifles)

One could argue they were more different even than they needed to be. Mix the tiers, change some things, and they WILL NOT feel the same as much as they seem to be the same.
16 Nov 2018, 22:46 PM
#40
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3148 | Subs: 7

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Nov 2018, 22:08 PMVipper
Fast M8A1 is extremely strong when properly support by HMG and ATG.


IMO this isn't the teching fault but rather that the Scott (especially 2 of them) with vet becomes pretty much as OP as the Brummbär. At least in team games. With their range and smoke they become nearly impossible to deal with (except for Raketten cheese or a tank dive) while being very wipey.

Other than that I think this tech is pretty good, it gives the daredevils all the tools they need to stall for fast Major/tanks and it gives people reasonable access to whatever they like to play with without locking themselves out of core units.
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