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4 Oct 2018, 07:23 AM
#1441
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6384 | Subs: 1


...
german infantry doc seems in a weird spot right now, imo it doesnt actually offer anything that would make you want to choose infantry over any other meta commander at the moment.
...

I agree with many of your points but I also feel the need to point out something. Imo many "meta" commanders especially Ostheer and Soviet are simply "OP" since they combine a number of very good abilities.

I one uses them as "benchmark" one would have to create "op" units, "op" abilities and OP commanders. The meta would become much more diverse if these commanders where actually redesigned and the "op" combination removed.

Part of the problem with "op" commanders is that underlying faction issues balance issues become harder to detect. For instance during the "lend lease" era Soviet as faction might had been "up" as faction but that would be nearly impossible to detect because the commander was so "op" that overshadowed any problems that might exist.
4 Oct 2018, 08:19 AM
#1442
avatar of Stark

Posts: 562 | Subs: 1

The healing on the commissar is so good. I don't understand why anyone would rather use an FRP. For 10 manpower more than the mandatory base medics, you get superior healing, fear propaganda, high explosive grenades, and a decent combat unit.


and imagine also had FRP.

Commissar is the unit with the biggest number of abilities in entire game i think and as much as this unit isn't good in combat, doesn't have crazy RA so shouldn't have a huge impact on a gameplay. But what is really annoying is (and unfair) that a Soviet faction had always special balance treatment. Why medics, and combat ability buffs doesn't have ammo cost? Even stupid 10 ammo would be fine per use? Every other faction, every other officer has abilities that costs something - even symbolic price.

And on top of most all of this (expect removed recently FRP) is avaiable from the vet 0. Nothing spread around vet.

My personal feedback is to give commissar abilities (including healing) a small price and spread out vet.
4 Oct 2018, 08:44 AM
#1443
avatar of Stark

Posts: 562 | Subs: 1


german infantry doc seems in a weird spot right now, imo it doesnt actually offer anything that would make you want to choose infantry over any other meta commander at the moment.
(...)
5 man squads - this upgrade imo is actually a huge trap. the dps you lose out on from not going the lmg42 is huge, and lmg42 grens will actually beat 5 men grens at pretty much every range. the only real use for this is actually 5 men pios with flamers. you get a fairly beefy squad and at vet 2 having 5 men with fast repairs is actually pretty good.
(...)
if completely switching out abilities is out of the question, some pretty significant changes need to happen to the current ones to make it viable.
5man - maybe have the upgrade give passive healing, increased veterancy gain, decreases reinforce cost, just straight up improves accuracy, caps faster, or gives them sort of ability. there just really isnt a reason to go 5 men grens over lmg grens at the moment, and more often than not is a bad choice becausue youre gonna be reinforcing more. the name of the doctrine is german infantry, and if the premiere ability sucks it would be a shame.
(...)
tactical movement - would be nice to change this ability out for something more powerful in the lategame? not sure what though. lefh maybe, or maybe that incindieary mortar barrage the urban warfare wehr commander used to have, even the pin loiter would be good.


In my opinion first thing what should be done is to make g43 transferable and test from there is anything extra is needed. Currently the RNG can f*ck you really hard and can decide about entire engagement - simple mortar shell, sniper shot or a volley of enemy infantry and most important model you have is dead with best weapon. Kinda lame.
Also as a disadvantage of this upgrade is that you gets extra bleed of MP (good side is you get extra survability) and it's not better than lmg42 upgrade and as a doctrinal upgrade it should be.

About the tactical movement - if you wanna replacement, it should referring more to infantry theme which is not available in 5 other commanders. IMO abilities like: "For the fatherland" ability from overwatch could fit.

PS: sorry for 2 posts in a row
4 Oct 2018, 08:58 AM
#1444
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6384 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Oct 2018, 08:19 AMStark
...
Why medics, and combat ability buffs doesn't have ammo cost? Even stupid 10 ammo would be fine per use? Every other faction, every other officer has abilities that costs something - even symbolic price.

...

Yes a constant healing aura is bad and the unit promotes blobbing. If heals stays it should be a timed ability with or without cost.
(edited to make it more clear)
4 Oct 2018, 09:16 AM
#1445
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 13765 | Subs: 7

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Oct 2018, 08:58 AMVipper

Yes a constant healing aura is bad and promotes blobbing. If heals stays it should be a timed ability with or without cost.

Obviously, as proven by how literally every single brit(med kits healing aura)/okw(healing crates aura) player plays.

Only thing it promotes is clumping up to heal and being mobile.
If you stay blobbed when healed, you'll be punished by first HMG on the way.
4 Oct 2018, 09:20 AM
#1446
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6384 | Subs: 1


Obviously, as proven by how literally every single brit(med kits healing aura)/okw(healing crates aura) player plays.

Only thing it promotes is clumping up to heal and being mobile.
If you stay blobbed when healed, you'll be punished by first HMG on the way.

Not sure what you mean.The aura from UKF medic kits and OKW kits is timed and has cost attached to them. So should be Commissar healing.
4 Oct 2018, 09:25 AM
#1447
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 13765 | Subs: 7

You can chain tommies kits indefinitely, while true, its more expensive and harder to pull off as okw, you still can.

Healing auras would be op if they healed in combat, which fortunately they no longer do.

I do agree that commissar healing should be timed if mobile/unlimited when immobile akin to ambulance, but healing itself doesn't promote any blobbing in itself.
4 Oct 2018, 09:28 AM
#1448
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6384 | Subs: 1

You can chain tommies kits indefinitely, while true, its more expensive and harder to pull off as okw, you still can.

Healing auras would be op if they healed in combat, which fortunately they no longer do.

I do agree that commissar healing should be timed if mobile/unlimited when immobile akin to ambulance, but healing itself doesn't promote any blobbing in itself.

A, ok I see, you agree with and you simply want to argue semantics. Ok I am moving on.
(will even edit my original post to make it more clear)
4 Oct 2018, 09:52 AM
#1449
avatar of JohnSmith

Posts: 834

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Oct 2018, 08:58 AMVipper

Yes a constant healing aura is bad and promotes blobbing. If heals stays it should be a timed ability with or without cost.


The way healing is implemented in live game, and as demonstrated in many games (e.g. GCS), that's factually wrong. To keep it simple and short: Healing encourages players having a central point to return to after engagements and benefits being immobile and out of combat for a while. Although it supports the movement of troops to stop enemies besieging the healing point, it drives players to quickly adapt their tactics to bypass enemies learning about its position whilst being at their weakest standpoint. But healing promotes a defensive turtling playstyle, as players are enticed to stay close to a safe sector for quick healing purposes. If players use healing to promote blobbing, the game punishes them. Thus, contrary to auras, healing does equal blobbing. The Commissar should follow a similar healing design methodology to achieve similar play-style.
4 Oct 2018, 11:59 AM
#1450
avatar of Stark

Posts: 562 | Subs: 1



The way healing is implemented in live game, and as demonstrated in many games (e.g. GCS), that's factually wrong. To keep it simple and short: Healing encourages players having a central point to return to after engagements and benefits being immobile for a while. Although it supports the movement of troops to stop enemies besieging the healing point, it drives players to quickly adapt their tactics to bypass enemies learning about its position whilst being at their weakest standpoint. But healing promotes a defensive turtling playstyle, as players are enticed to stay close to a safe sector for quick healing purposes. If players use healing to promote blobbing, the game punishes them. Thus, contrary to auras, healing does equal blobbing. The Commissar should follow a similar healing design methodology to achieve similar play-style.


Therefore it should have a proper price similar to their equivalents
4 Oct 2018, 14:31 PM
#1451
avatar of Smartie

Posts: 548

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Oct 2018, 08:44 AMStark


In my opinion first thing what should be done is to make g43 transferable and test from there is anything extra is needed. Currently the RNG can f*ck you really hard and can decide about entire engagement - simple mortar shell, sniper shot or a volley of enemy infantry and most important model you have is dead with best weapon. Kinda lame.
Also as a disadvantage of this upgrade is that you gets extra bleed of MP (good side is you get extra survability) and it's not better than lmg42 upgrade and as a doctrinal upgrade it should be.

About the tactical movement - if you wanna replacement, it should referring more to infantry theme which is not available in 5 other commanders. IMO abilities like: "For the fatherland" ability from overwatch could fit.

PS: sorry for 2 posts in a row


3 steps to make "German infantry" a decent doctrine:
1. Transferable G43 as you suggested + necessary buffs to 5 men grenadiers
2. Stormtroopers get also option to upgrade to 5-men units (80 mun?)
3. Replace "Tactical movement" with "Valiant assault".

Btw i haven't forgotten your great idea to replace the odd sturmtiger with the Tiger I. Although i don't think that the mod team will replace the sturmtiger before the test tournament i would suggest that we start a poll about that question.


4 Oct 2018, 14:46 PM
#1452
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6384 | Subs: 1

Speaking about "op" combinations the mechanized commander is simply get a bit out of hand.

The commander has access to 3 doctrinal mu abilities
1) Combined arms
2) mark target (WC 51)
3) 155 (WC 51)

6 doctrinal units
4) cavalry riflemen
5) WC51
6) M3
7) M21MTHT
8) 76 mm Sherman
9) Dozer at the extremely low cost of 340/110/70 Mu

The amount of abilities and combinations one can use from a single commander is simply over the top, while the wide variety of vehicles rather confuses the player more than anything else, with probability of using all these units during the course of game being very limited.

Imo the commander would be in much better place if "refuel refit" was redesigned to allow player to exchange his light vehicles for others, allowing greater flexibility and different build order.

In addition the need for WC51 to "scale" (more like being used) into late game with abilities like mark target and 155 barrage, would be removed since the unit could simply be refitted for a new one. The investment in light vehicle would also be more rewarding since the player be able to use the correct tool for the job as the game progressed.
4 Oct 2018, 15:22 PM
#1453
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 1954 | Subs: 3


Btw i haven't forgotten your great idea to replace the odd sturmtiger with the Tiger I. Although i don't think that the mod team will replace the sturmtiger before the test tournament i would suggest that we start a poll about that question.


Even though I like the Sturmtiger, I would also be excited for a Tiger I for OKW. Could be an "Ausf.E" variant with MG-42 and Panzer Tactician as standard. It would fit the Elite Armor theme better. It would offer a choice between immobile 'park-on-VP-KT' and a more mobile less-heavy tank.

Although it might be better to include it in the new commander in december. Replacing the Sturmtiger in Elite Armor would mean the vehicle is effectively removed from the game until further updates.
4 Oct 2018, 15:30 PM
#1454
avatar of RoastinGhost

Posts: 275

I had really wanted the Tiger I in Breakthrough Doctrine. I don't think Elite Armored really counts as a revamp when it just needed buffs.


Oh, also- maybe the 5-man grenadier upgrade could give an MG34 that's less effective than a normal MG42?
4 Oct 2018, 16:49 PM
#1455
avatar of Kasarov
Senior Modmaker Badge

Posts: 324 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Oct 2018, 08:19 AMStark

Commissar is the unit with the biggest number of abilities in entire game i think and as much as this unit isn't good in combat, doesn't have crazy RA so shouldn't have a huge impact on a gameplay. But what is really annoying is (and unfair) that a Soviet faction had always special balance treatment. Why medics, and combat ability buffs doesn't have ammo cost? Even stupid 10 ammo would be fine per use? Every other faction, every other officer has abilities that costs something - even symbolic price.

My personal feedback is to give commissar abilities (including healing) a small price and spread out vet.


I agree. I think the fear propaganda should be locked behind vet 1, and should just come at 6-man vet 0 for 300mp. I agree the medkit ability should be behind a timer like British medkits, but I'm unsure if it needs the token muni cost. I wouldn't care if it did cost 15 muni, since its not like Soviets have muni sinks.

About the combat performance, I think the commissar should get a PPsH at some point in it's veterancy. Many Soviet officers near combat were armed with submachine guns. It would complement the SVTs well in terms of range profiles and is just a straight upgrade of the pistol. I think it also opens up build orders because Soviets can go T2 with one squad of basically penals if the commissar was just slightly better in combat.
4 Oct 2018, 17:17 PM
#1456
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6384 | Subs: 1

NKVD disruption Tactics from a design point of view.



Thematically the commander should be about intelligence, infantry tactics both defensively and offensively. Radio intercept fit the commander nicely and could even be replaced by spy-network available t only 1 other commander.
(abilities like rapid conscript could use a redesign as I explain in another thread, providing squads that can not reinforce but can merge)
Comments:
The IL-2 Sturmovik attacks is a good ability (close to OP) but it can hardly keep the commander afloat since it also available to other far more power commanders that combine better abilities like IS-2, KV-1 and so on.

The only good solution here is to simply removed them from stronger commanders since they should not available to them in the first place.

The KV-8 is specialized tank and currently it is an odd place costing nearly as much as KV-1 with a high pop while being inferior. Imo the unit should be available with 2 methods, as a call-in unit at current price or as build able from T4 with a discount (350/120?). I will go into more details about the unit in a separate section. The unit is not bad but it available in much stronger commander that also have access to super heavy tanks. Again the ability should be removed from these commanders (so that it can not be a used as no tech transition unit to super heavies)

Scorched earth Policy is in weird place since it can heart user if used on his own territory and is difficult to use in enemy territory (but way to crippling for 35 munition if one pull it off). I actually find the implementation in coh1 where one could destroy the enemy territory much better. Again the commander hardly become attractive from this ability.

My suggestions would be:
If the mechanics stay the same to become available to more or all infantry so that it easier to use.

To redesign the ability:
So that now it work similar to "sector artillery" dropping incendiary munition on enemy units inside an owned sector. The ability could be triggered by player or when attempting to cap the sector similar to over watch flares. Price would have to go maybe to 70-100.
or
The ability now creates a number of booby traps inside a sector in random locations.
or
Use the Coh1 mechanism of destroying a neutral (or even owned sector).

Commissar squadagain the unit is weird place. The constant healing aura promotes blobbing and should be become timed if it stays. The propaganda is good but the buffing abilities need micro to use and situational. In principal and imo all aura unit should have their bonuses scale with veterancy giving the player the choice to use them cautiously for little return of risk in battle for greater reward. Currently a player losing such a unit is not really punished other than drain since he can call-in another unit and benefit from the same bonuses.

Suggestion:
Since the problem here is how to create a commander unit that support infantry but without promoting blobbing my approach would be that Commissar allows the activation of the abilities or provides further bonus to nearby units that use abilities.

For instance:
One could make "fight to the death" and "stand your ground" as abilities to the infantry themselves (fight to the death for Penals? stand your ground for Conscripts?) with a munition cost but only available when with in the aura of the Commissar
or
One could add bonuses affects for conscripts using "ourah" or bonus affect for AT grenades and molotovs (if I am not mistaken this can be achieved by adding a very small bonus to ourah and magnifying the effect with the aura).

In the case of penal (although I am skeptical since the unit is already powerful) "to the last man ability" could be added as button and ability could then be activated only when near the aura. The aura on this case would "add" 1 casualty to unit so that Penal squad with 6 entities would get same bonuses as one with 5 and so on.

Imo the commander compares pale to other commanders not because it actually bad but because its "stronger" abilities like IL-2 and KV-8 are also available to "stronger" commanders and the current commissar is problematic.

As long as abilities like the PPsh and IL-2 are available to commander with KV-1/T-34/85 and super heavies it is going to be hard to make the rest of the commander viable.
16 of 18 Relic postsRelic 4 Oct 2018, 17:18 PM
#1457
avatar of Andy_RE
Developer Relic Badge

Posts: 49 | Subs: 18

The latest version of the mod is now live. Thanks for your continued feedback and interest guys.

Change notes here: https://community.companyofheroes.com/discussion/245307/commander-revamp-preview-changelog#latest
17 of 18 Relic postsRelic 4 Oct 2018, 17:36 PM
#1458
avatar of Andy_RE
Developer Relic Badge

Posts: 49 | Subs: 18

Also, I've made the following Discord channel for finding revamp mod games.

Feel free to share the link around: https://discord.gg/mRYSckX

4 Oct 2018, 18:24 PM
#1459
avatar of A. Soldier
Social Media Manager Badge

Posts: 2717 | Subs: 2



I am begging you with tears in my eyes, at least please consider implementing Planet Smasher's Artillery pit or another alternative for a British non-doctrinal and non-fuel costing mobile mortar in the next revamp mod patch for testing and experimenting purposes.

The snares for the British are very much welcome but are only sadly 50% of why the Army is under utilized and under powered as many regard is.

And yes I know you answered my question about it but with each passing day with every topic I read regarding the British it always ends with a mobile mortar being the solution to the problem in most people's opinions.

I also fear that this is probably their last chance to be fixed since it's the end of the "5 year plan".

Again, at least please consider it for the next patch. Here is also a nice video I stumbled upon which also talks about the importance of a mobile mortar which somewhat translates into the game: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v772NNOTY8M

I know it might seem silly but it just breaks my heart to see them struggling because I was in the UKF Alpha and I somehow feel connected to the Army. I also loved the British in CoH even tho they had mostly the same issues but I was not part of their development unlike here.
4 Oct 2018, 18:30 PM
#1460
avatar of IncendiaryRounds:)

Posts: 1074

I agree with Vipper that the USF mech has been stuffed with far too many abilities and units. It's insane, so insane TwistedTootsy will be rank 1 USF lvl if this goes live.
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