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russian armor

since we are adding prototype tanks in game

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9 Sep 2022, 14:05 PM
#61
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13477 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post9 Sep 2022, 13:53 PMGrumpy


This...

Mass-produced normally also means that someone develops a production line specifically for the item being produced, not utilizing a product of another production line and modifying it on an ad-hoc basis.

Elefant was not an "ad-hoc" modification like the Geschutzenwagen FCM or a prototype units like the Selbstfahrlafette auf VK3001.

Elafant was a vehicle designed on drawing board to make use existing hulls and was produced in a factory and an production line. If you do not like the term "mass produced" for this case, I suggest you simply do not use it.

And that is really beside the Point which is that the Elefant regardless of it production history and problems was an effective unit with a very high kill score.
9 Sep 2022, 15:04 PM
#62
avatar of BasedSecretary

Posts: 1197



The elefant has an impressive amount of kills and on paper would be considered "the best tank destroyer". But if you actually dug around and looked at the tank design themselves, you would realize that it was only the "best" tank on paper



Yes, obviously the most powerful cannon fielded on a tank in the entire world (so far) and 200mm of armor are really fucking good. But then you don't read wikipedia (that ITSELF SAYS "CITATION NEEDED") and instead the reality, which is that the elefant/ferdinand TD was REALLY awful at mobility and reliability. This means that it knocked itself out with mechanical failures way more than being destroyed by enemy means, barely even drivable (and unable to go even up hill, according to a ferdinand crewman) and so on. If it actually managed to fire, it was devastating, but it barely managed to do so. A big gun and lots of armor don't mean that the tank is magically good.


You didnt bother actually reading my last post anyway so i dont know why i replied


my sides katukov:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
10 Sep 2022, 23:39 PM
#63
avatar of Switzerland
Donator 33

Posts: 545

To come back to the point of my post, as I'm not going to join this "Here's my table with numbers from wiki" and the reply of "HERES MY TABLE WITH EVEN BIGGER NUMBERS"

My point in regards to the normal presence of the Luftwaffe, Jagdtigers and Elefant and a magical tank that picks up wrecks and makes them new tanks again is its HIGHLY not historical actually its pure fiction. This is obvious as it was unhistorical decision making for the game to be appealing. The vampire stealing resources, again was an UNhistorical design choice made by Relic.

If they wish to make an UNhistorical design choice and release the black prince, its going to have to just be dealt with. Its their IP, so why is the gatekeeping happening now? ALL the previous historical fictions like INVICIBLE Stuka supply planes dropping fuel crates (Still invincible btw) I'm sorry its hard to not see this as just collective whinging from the side that has required a massive of UNhistorical changes to create a viable army and opponent to allied factions and draw in players to the product.

The King Tiger is available to 100% of OKW players 100% of the time. That very option existing is an example of trying to garner that myth to create interest in the player base not to abide historical accuracy and that is obvious. If that applies to give the allies a cool super heavy too, big deal we've been seeing hundreds more numbers or super rare tanks from the German factions for years.

Anyways simple point and an OMG factor here, COH1 and COH2 are poor examples of historical accuracy, so the Black Prince is a welcome addition to the Vampire Halftrack, Magic repair Tiger, hordes of tanks never produced in number club.
11 Sep 2022, 12:46 PM
#64
avatar of Reverb

Posts: 313



The key word is "claimed". Modern research has long dispelled the myth about the huge numbers claimed by German tankers or pilots. Especially considering that the battlefield was not left behind by the German troops. And the unit was forced to retreat


It is more fact than fiction using the Soviets own loss records. The Elefant was a pretty successful vehicle all thing considered. Actual historia nlke Hilary Doyel have said thing like the transmission was very good, it was engine seal on the head gasket in engine that were mechanical problem (cause oil leak and then fire), but you never hear that, you only see people parrot 'transmission catches fire' over and over.
In regard to German tank 'reliability issue' you always see, you have to look at records. They say Elefant so unreliable, but they never look at record and see those unit at Kursk in CONTINUAL combat for over a month. This happen a lot with German units, what vehicle would not have reliablity issue?

You are not allow to have balance, rational view of German unit or effectiveness in WW2. Too political, not historical. Many of their unit were bad, though not all, some very very good.

Game is very fake, it is a computer game! People should not learn history from computer game, movie, wikipedia, etc.
I do not care if black prince (or maus) is in game. It is computer game. Games are dumb. People that put value on computer game are dumb.
11 Sep 2022, 20:12 PM
#65
avatar of Katukov

Posts: 786 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Sep 2022, 12:46 PMReverb


It is more fact than fiction using the Soviets own loss records. The Elefant was a pretty successful vehicle all thing considered. Actual historia nlke Hilary Doyel have said thing like the transmission was very good, it was engine seal on the head gasket in engine that were mechanical problem (cause oil leak and then fire), but you never hear that, you only see people parrot 'transmission catches fire' over and over.
In regard to German tank 'reliability issue' you always see, you have to look at records. They say Elefant so unreliable, but they never look at record and see those unit at Kursk in CONTINUAL combat for over a month. This happen a lot with German units, what vehicle would not have reliablity issue?

You are not allow to have balance, rational view of German unit or effectiveness in WW2. Too political, not historical. Many of their unit were bad, though not all, some very very good.

Game is very fake, it is a computer game! People should not learn history from computer game, movie, wikipedia, etc.
I do not care if black prince (or maus) is in game. It is computer game. Games are dumb. People that put value on computer game are dumb.


le wehraboo bait comment by reverb #1230123420
12 Sep 2022, 14:32 PM
#66
avatar of BasedSecretary

Posts: 1197

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Sep 2022, 20:12 PMKatukov


le wehraboo bait comment by reverb #1230123420


SO when you quote history you are wehraboo... sad.

German tanks were made to be reliabe for 400-500miles at most and they were expected to traverse distances of even 25km daily. Come on man... read some book
12 Sep 2022, 22:54 PM
#67
avatar of Katukov

Posts: 786 | Subs: 1



SO when you quote history you are wehraboo... sad.


a lot of german tanks got large kill counts, yes this is not something one can dispute much (apart from claiming exaggerated kill counts, but that is not the topic). These heavy tanks (ferdinand/Elefant, JT, KT) are all extremely strong tanks (armor and gun wise), this is undisputed, but the CRIPPLING reliability meant that these "unstoppable" machines were knocked out by themselves, their operational ability also impaired, yada yada bla bla. Their low production numbers meant that each loss was significantly more devastating than the three or four tanks it single handely killed. Their cost was also extreme, each of them costing several panther tanks at once.

Instead of making several more lighter tanks that were successful enough, one went above and beyond to make expensive heavy tanks that were probably overkill until the advent of the is-2

TLDR german late war heavies are overrated, "lighter" tanks were a better idea


German tanks were made to be reliabe for 400-500miles at most and they were expected to traverse distances of even 25km daily. Come on man... read some book


most tanks were expected to last around 1000km but the german (heavy) ones in particular could (and did) break down or set themselves on fire pretty much immediately. Allied ones could break down well before the expected time, but these allied tanks were way easier to repair than overengineered german ones



but this is coh2, the only thing that matters is german mythology on armor and massive armor/gun size with formula 1 panthers
13 Sep 2022, 14:25 PM
#68
avatar of BasedSecretary

Posts: 1197

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Sep 2022, 22:54 PMKatukov


a lot of german tanks got large kill counts, yes this is not something one can dispute much (apart from claiming exaggerated kill counts, but that is not the topic). These heavy tanks (ferdinand/Elefant, JT, KT) are all extremely strong tanks (armor and gun wise), this is undisputed, but the CRIPPLING reliability meant that these "unstoppable" machines were knocked out by themselves, their operational ability also impaired, yada yada bla bla. Their low production numbers meant that each loss was significantly more devastating than the three or four tanks it single handely killed. Their cost was also extreme, each of them costing several panther tanks at once.

Instead of making several more lighter tanks that were successful enough, one went above and beyond to make expensive heavy tanks that were probably overkill until the advent of the is-2

TLDR german late war heavies are overrated, "lighter" tanks were a better idea



most tanks were expected to last around 1000km but the german (heavy) ones in particular could (and did) break down or set themselves on fire pretty much immediately. Allied ones could break down well before the expected time, but these allied tanks were way easier to repair than overengineered german ones



but this is coh2, the only thing that matters is german mythology on armor and massive armor/gun size with formula 1 panthers


You are right on the "heavy vs light" debate as it happened historically.

Speer (the man that laid the groundwork for mass building anything in Nazi Germany) recounts in his memoirs how "heavy tank mania" crippled Hitler's ability to make sound combat decisions.

When they came across the T34, he vividly recounts (Inside the Third Reich, Speer) how surprised Hitler was with not only the T34's main armament but also by the Zis anti-tank ditches. He almost immediately took over armor design from the Wehrmacht's Committee for War Production and ordered heavy front armor vehicles built.

Speer however, put some limits (due to the very crucial crude steel shortages Germany always experienced) on the tonnage of these new machines. Incidentally, the original contracts given for the "Tiger" machines put a strict limit of 40 metric tons for them which was considered very heavy at the time, hence the name "Tiger" for a very heavy hitting big cat.

Hitler personally overrode this, and asked for more front armor supposedly to tackle the threat of said ATG ditches. As such, the Tiger tank got its final combat weight of about 55 metric tons.

To once more offset this, Speer along with OKH asked for a more agile and nimble tank called Panther for taking on T34's built. Its original weight was to be no more than 25metric tons, and its original vision was a far smaller calibre gun alongside less armor attachments. Its main military usage would be to traverse long distances (owing to an almost perfect engine type being) whilst maintaining combat readiness at all times, something T34s could never do.

Once again, Hitler personally ordered the Panther to be considerably beefed up from the armor side and also the gun side whilst not allowing it to have a better engine. As a result, the final Panther had the tonnage of the original Tiger of about 44 tons.

Honestly a pretty captivating book. Well worth the read.
14 Sep 2022, 12:38 PM
#69
avatar of Reverb

Posts: 313

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Sep 2022, 20:12 PMKatukov


le wehraboo bait comment by reverb #1230123420


please tell me what i wrote that is wrong.
Ant sort of ratinonal disccusion just come down to brainless parrot ad-hoc 'le wehrboo' comment.
You can only say dumb things said about most of this stuff that is created on things like history channel shows, actual sources, context or legit historians are not allowed....

For the longest time you could only say Sherman was terrible tank because of things like History Channel, now with internet having legit historian point of view that is now complete opposite and mny argue it was best tank of war.
14 Sep 2022, 16:36 PM
#70
avatar of Katukov

Posts: 786 | Subs: 1



You are right on the "heavy vs light" debate as it happened historically.

Speer (the man that laid the groundwork for mass building anything in Nazi Germany) recounts in his memoirs how "heavy tank mania" crippled Hitler's ability to make sound combat decisions.

When they came across the T34, he vividly recounts (Inside the Third Reich, Speer) how surprised Hitler was with not only the T34's main armament but also by the Zis anti-tank ditches. He almost immediately took over armor design from the Wehrmacht's Committee for War Production and ordered heavy front armor vehicles built.

Speer however, put some limits (due to the very crucial crude steel shortages Germany always experienced) on the tonnage of these new machines. Incidentally, the original contracts given for the "Tiger" machines put a strict limit of 40 metric tons for them which was considered very heavy at the time, hence the name "Tiger" for a very heavy hitting big cat.

Hitler personally overrode this, and asked for more front armor supposedly to tackle the threat of said ATG ditches. As such, the Tiger tank got its final combat weight of about 55 metric tons.

To once more offset this, Speer along with OKH asked for a more agile and nimble tank called Panther for taking on T34's built. Its original weight was to be no more than 25metric tons, and its original vision was a far smaller calibre gun alongside less armor attachments. Its main military usage would be to traverse long distances (owing to an almost perfect engine type being) whilst maintaining combat readiness at all times, something T34s could never do.

Once again, Hitler personally ordered the Panther to be considerably beefed up from the armor side and also the gun side whilst not allowing it to have a better engine. As a result, the final Panther had the tonnage of the original Tiger of about 44 tons.

Honestly a pretty captivating book. Well worth the read.



This post is overall correct (cant be bothered nitpicking it), good post.

14 Sep 2022, 16:45 PM
#71
avatar of Katukov

Posts: 786 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Sep 2022, 12:38 PMReverb


please tell me what i wrote that is wrong.


everything
jump backJump back to quoted post14 Sep 2022, 12:38 PMReverb

Ant sort of ratinonal disccusion just come down to brainless parrot ad-hoc 'le wehrboo' comment.

yeah cause you're a brainless wehraboo
jump backJump back to quoted post14 Sep 2022, 12:38 PMReverb

You can only say dumb things said about most of this stuff that is created on things like history channel shows, actual sources, context or legit historians are not allowed....

For the longest time you could only say Sherman was terrible tank because of things like History Channel, now with internet having legit historian point of view that is now complete opposite and mny argue it was best tank of war.


nobody mentioned history channel, and there the allied tanks are """trash""" metal coffins while the tiger and panther are invincible valhalla terror machines.

complete idiots have (wrongly) claimed that allied tanks (sherman, t-34) are terrible, but the tiger 1, 2, panthers could kill gorillions of t-34s (and only got killed cause they ran out of ammo XDDDDDD). just like you said, legit historians have dispelled the myths that you ironically seem to claim
15 Sep 2022, 06:49 AM
#72
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3602 | Subs: 1

Realistically while the Ostheer is caped to 100pop, USF and USR should go behond 200pop with infinite ressource income.

Relic has a history of making Axis factions cool for the selling, suddenly they do the same for the brit and some ppl world is crumbling.
16 Sep 2022, 13:38 PM
#73
avatar of BasedSecretary

Posts: 1197

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Sep 2022, 06:49 AMEsxile
Realistically while the Ostheer is caped to 100pop, USF and USR should go behond 200pop with infinite ressource income.

Relic has a history of making Axis factions cool for the selling, suddenly they do the same for the brit and some ppl world is crumbling.


idiotic post

check your brain cells for damage
16 Sep 2022, 13:40 PM
#74
avatar of BasedSecretary

Posts: 1197

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Sep 2022, 16:45 PMKatukov

but the tiger 1, 2, panthers could kill gorillions of t-34s (and only got killed cause they ran out of ammo XDDDDDD). just like you said, legit historians have dispelled the myths that you ironically seem to claim


genuinely laughed on your take which is mostly correct

i remember playing BFV campaign called "The Last Tiger" and in the intro scene played something like "The tiger is the best combat machine ever seen... No allied tank could penetrate it... It most often lost due to lack of ammunition to fire enemy tanks..."
16 Sep 2022, 14:04 PM
#75
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1

Imagine calling someone else's post idiotic and then quoting battlefield 5 for historical reference...

This can't be genuine, just an extremely committed troll
16 Sep 2022, 14:11 PM
#76
avatar of BasedSecretary

Posts: 1197

Imagine calling someone else's post idiotic and then quoting battlefield 5 for historical reference...

This can't be genuine, just an extremely committed troll



are you fucking stupid??

In my time here I have quoted at the very least 30 different ww2 books.

The BF5 reference was as a humor to a good reply by my friend Katukov.

Please read before you speak, truly.

In this post alone I have quoted speer's memoirs which detail how he built the biggest armament empire in nazi germany, putting out the highest number of armaments ever in the month of November1944, where allies already overran most germany.
16 Sep 2022, 14:22 PM
#77
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1




are you fucking stupid??

In my time here I have quoted at the very least 30 different ww2 books.

The BF5 reference was as a humor to a good reply by my friend Katukov.

Please read before you speak, truly.

30? Lol whatever you say professor. Definitely not an exaggeration

Most of your posts come across as jokes, just heads up

In this post alone I have quoted speer's memoirs which detail how he built the biggest armament empire in nazi germany, putting out the highest number of armaments ever in the month of November1944, where allies already overran most germany.

Congratulations? Who cares? Nobody is arguing against history. Just pointing out the irony of you calling anyone stupid
16 Sep 2022, 14:29 PM
#78
avatar of BasedSecretary

Posts: 1197


30? Lol whatever you say professor. Definitely not an exaggeration

Most of your posts come across as jokes, just heads up


Congratulations? Who cares? Nobody is arguing against history. Just pointing out the irony of you calling anyone stupid


Look up my posts. My estimate is that I have cited about 120 books, but 30 will surely cut it for you.

In my previous post nowhere have I said that I take BF5 as a historical reference but as a JOKE on top of something Katukov said that I found funny.

And now after all this you realized how horrible your reading skills are and resort to adhomined "lmao every1 laughs about you broooooxDxDxD" in a feeble attempt to save what little credibility you have I feel really sorry for you.
16 Sep 2022, 14:36 PM
#79
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1


Look up my posts. My estimate is that I have cited about 120 books, but 30 will surely cut it for you.

This is a hilarious flex. This trolling commitment is pretty incredible dude


In my previous post nowhere have I said that I take BF5 as a historical reference but as a JOKE on top of something Katukov said that I found funny.

Well it was a dogshit joke then. You gave the example right after saying he was "mostly correct"....


And now after all this you realized how horrible your reading skills are and resort to adhomined "lmao every1 laughs about you broooooxDxDxD" in a feeble attempt to save what little credibility you have I feel really sorry for you.

Where did I say everyone was laughing at you? I speak for myself, not everyone else

If you think everyone is laughing at you that's your problem. I can't say I disagree, but you said it, not me
19 Sep 2022, 15:27 PM
#80
avatar of donofsandiego

Posts: 1326

Heavies should just be very very limited in coh 3. Axis included.


It's too late for that. Devs had a chance to build a game around early war light and medium tanks but we're going down the classic medium-and-heavy-centric rabbit hole.

It's unfortunate they were so piss-their-pants scared of trying out a different gameplay loop. Oh well. More PANZERS, this time in front of a YELLOW BACKDROP!! Much wow.
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