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russian armor

Pioneers - the biggest broken OST unit.

15 Feb 2022, 21:08 PM
#21
avatar of Riley

Posts: 268

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Feb 2022, 20:36 PMRosbone
Just for clarity...

The pio design is two fold:
* Realism
* Asymmetrical balance

In WW2, Axis was very strong at the start of the war. Thus Sturms, Kubels, snipers, and pio sighted MGs.

In order for all factions to play differently, pios need vision to support the MG42. They give sight so it can be setup aggressively. Since they have good close range DPS they can then protect the MG when it gets flanked.

Soviets were late to the war and should be strong later in the game. Therefore as an EFA they do not need vision for maxims.

The constant "balancing" breaks the original ideas behind each faction. Which is what people complain about.

People complain about OP units until they get nerfed. Then other people complain about each faction playing the same




"They give sight so it can be setup aggressivel" Did you mean firing from the fog of war at the very beginning of the battle, when you can't even see the mg42?

"Our aim is to encourage positional play and combined arms, which the Wehrmacht faction tends to reply on more than any other faction"

It turns out that they have the best positional play, and the ability to aggressively push with mg42 at the beginning? That is the broken thing. And no one asks to remove this, let this Jaeger sight range just shift to vet1.

And references to real WW2 do not work at all, otherwise you will open a pandora's box. The Germans have always been stronger than the Soviets, if you know even a little about history.

15 Feb 2022, 21:32 PM
#22
avatar of Rosbone
Senior Mapmaker Badge

Posts: 1759 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Feb 2022, 21:08 PMRiley
"They give sight so it can be setup aggressivel" Did you mean firing from the fog of war at the very beginning of the battle, when you can't even see the mg42?

Yes this is exactly what I meant. Asymmetric balance. Are you going to also remove OORAH then? Because you will need to if you nerf the pios vision.

Personally I could care less about any of this. I am not against your argument. Just trying to put the conversation in perspective for everyone else reading.

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Feb 2022, 21:08 PMRiley
And references to real WW2 do not work at all, otherwise you will open a pandora's box. The Germans have always been stronger than the Soviets, if you know even a little about history.

Axis was aggressive early, Allies over came later. Just the general sense of the war. Not talking Germany vs Russia in a head to head illegal in 17 states unsanctioned grudge match.


15 Feb 2022, 22:11 PM
#23
avatar of Lady Xenarra

Posts: 889

Damn, I guess the OP will surely call for Path/Kubel nerfs next.....

I certainly don't fancy the odds of a faction with 4-man squads having to basically face-check for MGs, without pioneer sight. It's absolutely awful with a 5-man one, I can state that.

MG-MG duels are always tricky things.
15 Feb 2022, 23:00 PM
#24
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3386 | Subs: 1

Soviet mortar flares OP too?

If your using your pios to spot, then they aren't placing wire, mines, etc. They do have other jobs you know

The sight is very useful, but it's hardly a problem

Edit: also, no one is going to take your thread seriously if you exaggerate like that in the title
16 Feb 2022, 00:47 AM
#25
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1482

Pioneers having such a large sight is not really a problem in most scenarios. Sure, on some maps it's a bigger deal than on others, but it's still fine. They are a close quarters unit meaning that they can only really defend the MG42, and not trade with anyone cover to cover. Sure, you could make the bonus sight a vet1 bonus, but then oorah would have to go to vet as well; probably the IS cover bonus would also have to be redistributed onto veterancy (nerf vet0, buff vet1 cover bonus)... too much hassle to balance it at this stage of the game.

Also it's more of a teamgame issue where one MG42 can lock down a VP and a fuel point (Across the rheine, west spawn-bottom). And only for brits and USF. Brits lack a good smoke dispenser and the USF mortar will only be a population strain later on (having sh** AOE). Going for the 81mm mortar as soviets is even encouraged in teamgames on such maps, so the pio/mg42 will be negated.

All in all, it's a map design issue at most. Not an "OP unit" issue
16 Feb 2022, 01:43 AM
#26
avatar of Riley

Posts: 268

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Feb 2022, 21:32 PMRosbone

Yes this is exactly what I meant. Asymmetric balance. Are you going to also remove OORAH then? Because you will need to if you nerf the pios vision.

Personally I could care less about any of this. I am not against your argument. Just trying to put the conversation in perspective for everyone else reading.


Axis was aggressive early, Allies over came later. Just the general sense of the war. Not talking Germany vs Russia in a head to head illegal in 17 states unsanctioned grudge match.




You also want to confuse the meaning. Who will seriously compare the pioneers and cons. Maybe compare the pioneers with the commandos? Still no one can give a reasonable argument why they need it in the beginning. And you admitted that this allows the MG42 to shoot out of the fog of war in the first minute of the game. I will not get tired of repeating this, because you guys are trying to distort the meaning of my message. This suppresses your mg for sure because the enemy knows where your mg is and you can't see it. The debut is of great importance, and this sight range in the first seconds of the fight is real broken. So this should be shifted to vet1.
16 Feb 2022, 01:57 AM
#27
avatar of Riley

Posts: 268

Pioneers having such a large sight is not really a problem in most scenarios. Sure, on some maps it's a bigger deal than on others, but it's still fine. They are a close quarters unit meaning that they can only really defend the MG42, and not trade with anyone cover to cover. Sure, you could make the bonus sight a vet1 bonus, but then oorah would have to go to vet as well; probably the IS cover bonus would also have to be redistributed onto veterancy (nerf vet0, buff vet1 cover bonus)... too much hassle to balance it at this stage of the game.

Also it's more of a teamgame issue where one MG42 can lock down a VP and a fuel point (Across the rheine, west spawn-bottom). And only for brits and USF. Brits lack a good smoke dispenser and the USF mortar will only be a population strain later on (having sh** AOE). Going for the 81mm mortar as soviets is even encouraged in teamgames on such maps, so the pio/mg42 will be negated.

All in all, it's a map design issue at most. Not an "OP unit" issue


"A map design issue"

You know, I have experience in this forum. We've been through this. I once wrote on this forum that the US mortar is very bad, comparing it with the Oster mortar. That Rifleman AT grenades should be available after opening the captain or lieutenant. Then guys like you wrote that the USF didn't need it, and various bad results in tournaments are just bad map design that is inconvenient for the usf. And what happened next. The US mortar was made better, and the riflemans got AT grenades. So no, let's not talk about map designs unless you really believe what you're saying. Thx.
16 Feb 2022, 07:20 AM
#28
avatar of KoRneY

Posts: 629

If you're going to straight up nerf their early game, what do ostheer get to balance out the nerf? Or you just want to make it easier for allies?
16 Feb 2022, 08:58 AM
#29
avatar of Oziligath

Posts: 187

well ofc the sight of pio's is pretty big but stating that they're OP seems a bit off, like mg can shoot from FoW maybe but then you back up and you avoid that part of the map? Idk, or you have mortars, or you have LV's like there are tools to deal with early mg's plus pio's sight range. I can hardly see where the issue is tbh.
16 Feb 2022, 10:12 AM
#30
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3475 | Subs: 1

A riflemen squad cautch by the HMG early game can be a 2/3 minutes GG on some situation. We already saw it in tournament games.

My concern with Pioneers atm is not that Pioneers are OP with it but if Ostheer does really need it to sustain their early game. The only thing it does is allowing Ostheer to be super aggressive early game with little downside, forcing your opponent to do more micro while reducing yours.

16 Feb 2022, 13:23 PM
#31
avatar of donofsandiego

Posts: 763

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Feb 2022, 21:08 PMRiley


"They give sight so it can be setup aggressivel" Did you mean firing from the fog of war at the very beginning of the battle, when you can't even see the mg42?



I'm just gonna be the guy that points out the obvious here... unless you're on a road or something and got insta-pinned, if you're getting suppressed by an MG42 in the fog of war, you're far enough away to get out of the arc of fire by just moving backwards. You realize that right? You have the ability to disengage and come back from a different direction.
16 Feb 2022, 13:39 PM
#32
avatar of donofsandiego

Posts: 763

You're completely missing the point about cons btw. He's talking about soviet players using oorah to flank the MG, which pios prevent by sighting for the MG.

Generally the allies outnumber the axis players with mainline infantry early on. So for a bit it's an Axis MG + pioneer fighting an engineer and a con (for example). If axis loses that engagement and has to retreat the MG, they're going to constantly be on the back foot after it because of the sheer imbalance of infantry. (pio + gren VS. con, con, engineer)

That's why Axis has to have an advantage in setting up the MG and spotting for it. Plus, as mentioned earlier, they've got 4 man squads that they's otherwise have to check for MGs with their face. And here's the thing about allies not having as much sight for their MGs: when you start getting fired at, you're too far into the arc to just run back out. Consider it a blessing if the Axis player only shoots at you from max range, you get to keep your unit on the field and plan a counterattack.
16 Feb 2022, 13:39 PM
#33
avatar of donofsandiego

Posts: 763

accidental double post, you can delete this.
16 Feb 2022, 14:39 PM
#34
avatar of BasedSecretary

Posts: 1183

You're completely missing the point about cons btw. He's talking about soviet players using oorah to flank the MG, which pios prevent by sighting for the MG.

Generally the allies outnumber the axis players with mainline infantry early on. So for a bit it's an Axis MG + pioneer fighting an engineer and a con (for example). If axis loses that engagement and has to retreat the MG, they're going to constantly be on the back foot after it because of the sheer imbalance of infantry. (pio + gren VS. con, con, engineer)

That's why Axis has to have an advantage in setting up the MG and spotting for it. Plus, as mentioned earlier, they've got 4 man squads that they's otherwise have to check for MGs with their face. And here's the thing about allies not having as much sight for their MGs: when you start getting fired at, you're too far into the arc to just run back out. Consider it a blessing if the Axis player only shoots at you from max range, you get to keep your unit on the field and plan a counterattack.


^This.

We are talking about a 4man squad and MG fighting at least 1 4man squad plus 6 man mainline with oorah (and don't even get me started on those that send 3 different cons from different angles to flank MG).

OST should have some kind of tactical way to overcome this. I don't even get why make such a fuss about this.
16 Feb 2022, 19:18 PM
#35
avatar of Riley

Posts: 268

You're completely missing the point about cons btw. He's talking about soviet players using oorah to flank the MG, which pios prevent by sighting for the MG.

Generally the allies outnumber the axis players with mainline infantry early on. So for a bit it's an Axis MG + pioneer fighting an engineer and a con (for example). If axis loses that engagement and has to retreat the MG, they're going to constantly be on the back foot after it because of the sheer imbalance of infantry. (pio + gren VS. con, con, engineer)

That's why Axis has to have an advantage in setting up the MG and spotting for it. Plus, as mentioned earlier, they've got 4 man squads that they's otherwise have to check for MGs with their face. And here's the thing about allies not having as much sight for their MGs: when you start getting fired at, you're too far into the arc to just run back out. Consider it a blessing if the Axis player only shoots at you from max range, you get to keep your unit on the field and plan a counterattack.



How can you compare "Oraah" for 15 muni, and a passive ability 42 sight range. This is a made up reason to justify a broken sight range. Relik gave mp40 to the pioneers, which means that they will quickly deal with cons that will approach mg42. (We can even test it.)

On the other hand, then why don't the Britы have anything like that, because there are assault grenadiers who also have a sprint. And they are much more dangerous than cons.

You are also very afraid of my topic, so you want to delete it, because I touched on a thing that you love very much. Shoot the mg42 from the fog of war into another mg, in the very first seconds of the game This is the thing that is broken. Shift it to vet1.
16 Feb 2022, 20:43 PM
#36
avatar of donofsandiego

Posts: 763

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Feb 2022, 19:18 PMRiley
How can you compare "Oraah" for 15 muni, and a passive ability 42 sight range. This is a made up reason to justify a broken sight range..


The point is that Oorah is used (among other things) to flank MGs and pios are there to give early warning/sight to the MG. It's pretty self explanatory. Nobody here is arguing Oorah is OP. And also lmfao at the "broken sight range" comment. It's really not that serious. I play both sides, SOV mainly. Trust me, if you have simple skills like knowing how to flank and the ability to grasp object permanence, being shot at from max range by an MG in the fog of war is very much not an issue.

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Feb 2022, 19:18 PMRiley
You are also very afraid of my topic, so you want to delete it, because I touched on a thing that you love very much.


You need to calm yourself, guy. Reread my post. I accidentally posted my response twice, so I told the mods they could delete it.
17 Feb 2022, 11:30 AM
#37
avatar of Kurobane

Posts: 643

I made a similar post about this long ago.

Whermacht in general have access to some of the best vision tools in the game. Wether it is from free Pioneers, Sniper, Scout Car or spotting scopes, they have numerous viable forms of extended vision options while USF really only has Pathfinders. Which is problematic considering that the design for USF is based on Rifleman and "flanking" the enemy. Kind of hard to do that when you have a vision disadvantage at almost all stages of the game minus one doctrinal unit.

To be clear im not advocating that the Pioneer vision be nerfed but rather numerous options for vision be spread out across the factions in a fairer manner.

Such as Rear Echelon getting a vision bonus, USF vehicles not needing to hit Vet 3 (Stuart) just to do what a Kubel can at Vet 0

Combat Engineers getting vision bonus at Vet 1, things like that for Soviets instead of crutching so hard on T-70 for vision or Mortar Flare Spam (which should be nerfed if other vision options are granted)

17 Feb 2022, 11:35 AM
#38
avatar of DonnieChan

Posts: 2204 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Feb 2022, 14:17 PMRiley
Pios have sight range 40. This means that they can know in advance where the vickers or maxim is located. And suppress your machine gun. For a long time I did not understand how the mg42 was shooting at me from the fog of war. Everything turned out to be simple - this is the sight range of the pioneers. How easily I take fuel or another important point in the early-early game, this is guaranteed.


This is not a problem in general, it is only debut problem and the solution to the problem is very simple. Move the sight range 40 to the 1 vet. The base sight range should be 35, like other units: combat eng, royal eng, and RE. It made more sense to give such to the rear echelon in order to coordinate the mortar. I remember Sturmäger talking about the pioneers a long time ago, but then no one else paid any attention to it.


ok, you can have the sight-range pios.

give us pathfinder instead,
17 Feb 2022, 11:36 AM
#39
avatar of DonnieChan

Posts: 2204 | Subs: 1

I made a similar post about this long ago.

Whermacht in general have access to some of the best vision tools in the game. Wether it is from free Pioneers, Sniper, Scout Car or spotting scopes, they have numerous viable forms of extended vision options while USF really only has Pathfinders. Which is problematic considering that the design for USF is based on Rifleman and "flanking" the enemy. Kind of hard to do that when you have a vision disadvantage at almost all stages of the game minus one doctrinal unit.

To be clear im not advocating that the Pioneer vision be nerfed but rather numerous options for vision be spread out across the factions in a fairer manner.

Such as Rear Echelon getting a vision bonus, USF vehicles not needing to hit Vet 3 (Stuart) just to do what a Kubel can at Vet 0

Combat Engineers getting vision bonus at Vet 1, things like that for Soviets instead of crutching so hard on T-70 for vision or Mortar Flare Spam (which should be nerfed if other vision options are granted)



m20
17 Feb 2022, 12:18 PM
#40
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13267 | Subs: 1

I made a similar post about this long ago.

Whermacht in general have access to some of the best vision tools in the game. Wether it is from free Pioneers, Sniper, Scout Car or spotting scopes, they have numerous viable forms of extended vision options while USF really only has Pathfinders. Which is problematic considering that the design for USF is based on Rifleman and "flanking" the enemy. Kind of hard to do that when you have a vision disadvantage at almost all stages of the game minus one doctrinal unit.

To be clear im not advocating that the Pioneer vision be nerfed but rather numerous options for vision be spread out across the factions in a fairer manner.

Such as Rear Echelon getting a vision bonus, USF vehicles not needing to hit Vet 3 (Stuart) just to do what a Kubel can at Vet 0

Combat Engineers getting vision bonus at Vet 1, things like that for Soviets instead of crutching so hard on T-70 for vision or Mortar Flare Spam (which should be nerfed if other vision options are granted)


Simply false
USF have sight options

Stock:
Major with both extended sight and stock reckon planes
M1 Take Aim! ability
M20
Stuart


Pathfinder
IR Pathfinders
Gray hound
WC21
Flares for riflemen
Easy8 Tank commander
Combined arms

Actually out of the 9 USF commander only 3 do not get something that increases sight.
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