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russian armor

Should SU76 have 160 damage vet3?

14 Sep 2021, 04:33 AM
#61
avatar of Zyllen

Posts: 756



It you dont back off once the tiger tries to bully the double su76's it will most likely kill one su76. But if you back away your su76's you loose territory.

Having only a chance off 0,53% and 0,56% to pen the tiger at max and mid range it doesnt look good.
8x 140 damage or 9x 120 damage shots need to pen to kill it. When rng is 100% with you. Its about 15 or 17 shots when rng hates you.
While the tiger or a panther need only 3 to kill one su76.


a single su85 doesnt have much chance against a tiger or panther and it only needs 1 shot more to kill a su85. this is not a realistic scenario. you have to take in account army composition and where the units are placed . a single t34 a guards or a mine can swing the balance back into your favor
14 Sep 2021, 07:11 AM
#62
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 748

2x Su76 is not better then 1x su85, not by a long shot. Here are why

Calculations:



So TTK of P4J/vet2 P4H for SU76 is 56s/36s vs 28s/21.6s of Su85.

BUT also 2 x Su76 are more expensive + they die much more easily. SU76 gets fausted even with 100% health, has worse scaling, setup requires 2x micro, inefficient vs anything past P4 like Sturmpanzer, Panther, Tiger, KT etc.

I bet this is very obvious for anyone who played SOV long enough and could have come to exact same conclusion without any of those numbers, but this may not be the case for someone who spams single side/faction.
14 Sep 2021, 07:59 AM
#63
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1216

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Sep 2021, 04:33 AMZyllen


a single su85 doesnt have much chance against a tiger or panther and it only needs 1 shot more to kill a su85. this is not a realistic scenario. you have to take in account army composition and where the units are placed . a single t34 a guards or a mine can swing the balance back into your favor


Look i fully agree its unrealistic what i preposed. Also the slightest at support for the tiger can swing it in the tigers favor as well. Its all great combined arms mechanics.

I wanted to show the su76 is not cost effective for the late game.
14 Sep 2021, 08:47 AM
#64
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 748



Look i fully agree its unrealistic what i preposed. Also the slightest at support for the tiger can swing it in the tigers favor as well. Its all great combined arms mechanics.

I wanted to show the su76 is not cost effective for the late game.

You were actually right, 1 SU is still ok vs 1 Tiger. You just cover SU with infantry, shot 2 times and snare it. After it Tiger is just dead, or is going to a 1 year repair vacation.
But mostly it is more like 2 AT guns, 1 SU and 1 t34 vs heavy armor composition.
And if we are talking about su76, I don't think even 3 SU76 will be as useful as single SU85 vs 1 tiger.
14 Sep 2021, 10:28 AM
#65
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12978 | Subs: 1


You were actually right, 1 SU is still ok vs 1 Tiger. You just cover SU with infantry, shot 2 times and snare it. After it Tiger is just dead, or is going to a 1 year repair vacation.
But mostly it is more like 2 AT guns, 1 SU and 1 t34 vs heavy armor composition.
And if we are talking about su76, I don't think even 3 SU76 will be as useful as single SU85 vs 1 tiger.

Then I suggest you test in cheat mode driving a Tiger to 3 SU-76 or even 3 SU-76 to Elephant and try to slug it out and see what happens.
14 Sep 2021, 11:13 AM
#66
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 748

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Sep 2021, 10:28 AMVipper

Then I suggest you test in cheat mode driving a Tiger to 3 SU-76 or even 3 SU-76 to Elephant and try to slug it out and see what happens.

Are you talking about hypothetical scenario that can happen with all the variables, or just testmap slugfest?
14 Sep 2021, 11:20 AM
#67
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12978 | Subs: 1


Are you talking about hypothetical scenario that can happen with all the variables, or just testmap slugfest?

The question is what you are talking about? because a Tiger vs 3 SU-76 is going to have a hard time both in slug-fest and and even worse player vs player.
14 Sep 2021, 11:29 AM
#68
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 748

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Sep 2021, 11:20 AMVipper

The question is what you are talking about? because a Tiger vs 3 SU-76 is going to have a hard time both in slug-fest and and even worse player vs player.

by hard time you mean, almost bouncing every second shell? have you actually compared the DPS, cost and popcap if you are fighting a tiger with each setup? Does it really look remotely viable to make 3 SU76s instead if 1 Su85 and save up for buy a t34 to have a better setup?
14 Sep 2021, 11:34 AM
#69
avatar of Katukov

Posts: 587 | Subs: 1

x3 su-76 kill a tiger 1, on vet zero, faster than a single su-85


but then again 75x3>130
14 Sep 2021, 12:00 PM
#70
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12978 | Subs: 1


by hard time you mean, almost bouncing every second shell?

Now count the number of shells 3 SU-76 fire compared to a single SU-85.


have you actually compared the DPS, cost and popcap if you are fighting a tiger with each setup?

Have you tested your setup 1 Tiger vs 3 Su-76 and 1 Tiger vs a Single SU-85 or are you just theorycrafting?


Does it really look remotely viable to make 3 SU76s instead if 1 Su85 and save up for buy a t34 to have a better setup?

You brought up the comparison not me.


...
And if we are talking about su76, I don't think even 3 SU76 will be as useful as single SU85 vs 1 tiger.


A Su-85 will lose to Tiger and Tiger will lose to 3 Su-76 so what you wrote is false...

Generally speaking a SU-85 is better choice but there is not need for claiming thing that simply not true.
14 Sep 2021, 12:13 PM
#71
avatar of Katukov

Posts: 587 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Sep 2021, 12:00 PMVipper



A Su-85 will lose to Tiger and Tiger will lose to 3 Su-76 so what you wrote is false...

if the su-76s stay in firing range they'll lose too xD
14 Sep 2021, 13:01 PM
#72
avatar of Kurobane

Posts: 548

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Sep 2021, 12:00 PMVipper


A Su-85 will lose to Tiger


If they are both in range of each and none are moving I agree that a SU-85 would lose to a Tiger Tank, however if movement is involved then the SU-85 could kite the Tiger rather well turning the battle in its favor especially if it spots the Tiger first.
14 Sep 2021, 13:54 PM
#73
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5277

Are we really arguing over what 3 su76s can do as an opposition to bumping the fully Vetted damage up to a standard threshold?

140 is an awful number and makes in game calculations rough. The su76 does not get any pen increases, so a reasonable damage buff would cement its role as lighter AT than the su85 whilst actually making investing in one and keeping it alive impact when it does pen.

Its a good change for consistency and for making a barely used, poorly scaling unit more attractive.

The downsides are nil.
14 Sep 2021, 14:02 PM
#74
avatar of Lady Xenarra

Posts: 848

inb4 SU-76M oppressive memes

In the past I would have shrugged at more SU-76M buffs, but due to the virtual disappearance of similarly timed fuel units (Puma etc.) I had to think more. If it appears, the only realistic counter it'll face are AT guns. It performs much of the job as a ZiS albeit 120dmg and no setup time.

Yesterday, I got mauled pretty badly (in the first 1/3) by a smurf and his SU-76M on Fields right fuel. Barraged constantly and flank routes blocked. Had to wait for JP4 before I could blow it up with my 2 raks. Granted he wasn't able to get it to vet III in time but I wouldn't fancy a shootout with a Pz IV ausf J or JP4 against 160 dmg shots.

Is it fair as a reward for vet III? Depends on how easily it gets there I suppose.

14 Sep 2021, 23:45 PM
#75
avatar of Serrith

Posts: 782

While ostensibly a "hybrid" unit that can tackle both vehicles and infantry depending on how you use it, the Su76 ends up getting shoehorned primarily into an AT role while its anti infantry qualities are only used incidentally. This is due to the fact that its actual anti infantry ability costs munitions and is already available on zis which arrive earlier and you will almost always have.

So how to fix it? I don't think making the current ability free would be a good idea, especially given that the zis version actually costs munitions and is on a less mobile chassis.

But I do think changing the ability and making it free might make it more desirable.
If the ability was a slow area denial barrage with long range akin to a howitzer (but of course with less potency per shot), and with a moderate cooldown that gets reduced incrementally with vet, you could make it free. Think of it like an rocket artillery "lite".

Of course you still have redundancy issues, why get an su76 free long range barrage when you could get a katy? Why take the su76 light AT when you could get an Su85? But it would make the su76 more of a true hybrid and a free barrage would make it far more desirable even if it's not as potent.
14 Sep 2021, 23:55 PM
#76
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 748

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Sep 2021, 12:00 PMVipper

lots of text

I stand by my words. I'd rather get a single Su-85 then a multiple su76s. And I'm not talking about pretty unrealistic situation where you can choose between getting 3 SU76 or SU85, because you are spending resources and popcap, you are transitioning into the game and you face adapting adversity. Also 3x SU is whole a lot more micro then 1 su85 and, don't know about you, but my micro and multitasking is not unlimited. I'm not Kimbo. So yeah, 1 Su85 is better to have then 3 su76.

Also I said "I think". But you might get 3 Su76, like Zyllen, because he thinks 2 SU76 >> single Su85, even tho balance team deliberately nerfed armor penetration, so the SU76 spam would not be an efficient strat over getting Su85.
15 Sep 2021, 00:12 AM
#77
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1346

Everyone would rather get an SU-85 than 3 SU76. Much easier to micro-manage and less pop intensive. Penetrates more and is easier to keep alive. Thing with SU76 is, if you go for one, you should def go for another. 3 SU76 is a sh**ton of AT firepower, 140 dmg or not. With the ROF and all. Of course, so is 3x stugs or 3x paks or 3x raketen.... The only difference is the price/timing.
15 Sep 2021, 00:26 AM
#78
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12978 | Subs: 1


You were actually right, 1 SU is still ok vs 1 Tiger. You just cover SU with infantry, shot 2 times and snare it. After it Tiger is just dead, or is going to a 1 year repair vacation.
But mostly it is more like 2 AT guns, 1 SU and 1 t34 vs heavy armor composition.
And if we are talking about su76, I don't think even 3 SU76 will be as useful as single SU85 vs 1 tiger.



I stand by my words. I'd rather get a single Su-85 then a multiple su76s.

Only this is not what you have posted, you claimed that 1 Su-85 might be better than 3 SU76 vs Tiger. And it simply is not.


And I'm not talking about pretty unrealistic situation where you can choose between getting 3 SU76 or SU85, because you are spending resources and popcap, you are transitioning into the game and you face adapting adversity. Also 3x SU is whole a lot more micro then 1 su85 and, don't know about you, but my micro and multitasking is not unlimited. I'm not Kimbo. So yeah, 1 Su85 is better to have then 3 su76.

Only in the armor composition you described you would have to micro 2 ATG, 1 SU-85 and T-34 and a SU-85 and if you can micro all that you can probably micro a 3 Su-76.


Also I said "I think". But you might get 3 Su76, like Zyllen, because he thinks 2 SU76 >> single Su85, even tho balance team deliberately nerfed armor penetration, so the SU76 spam would not be an efficient strat over getting Su85.

That is not accurate. The change was a great increase in accuracy and small decrease in penetration so that SU-76 perform better vs medium armor and bellow and worse vs heavy armor. And it was a solid change.

If one fighting T3 vehicles Su-76 are probably more cost efficient than SU-85.

As I have pointed out generally speaking going T4 earlier is a better investment and in the long run SU-85 is also a better investment.

On the other if you are facing Tiger SU-76 can deliver more damage than SU-85, so the comment was off mark. Can we now move on PLS.

15 Sep 2021, 07:29 AM
#79
avatar of Aarotron

Posts: 563

If it had stationary barrage mode to use it as light arty or sherman like ammoswap that could allow it to lob he shells like scott, id say it would be decent.
15 Sep 2021, 08:00 AM
#80
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 748

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Sep 2021, 00:26 AMVipper

...

Especially vs a composition with a tiger. 24 popcap and 225 fuel worth of mediocrity with a bonus of microing 3 turretless light tanks. Imagine getting a t34 on top of that and microing infantry with that? Imagine enemy being realistic and building a pak, or even 2 of them? + Getting pressured by receiving a faust every second regardless of HP pool. This strat has so many holes.

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Sep 2021, 00:26 AMVipper

Only in the armor composition you described you would have to micro 2 ATG, 1 SU-85 and T-34 and a SU-85 and if you can micro all that you can probably micro a 3 Su-76.

that looks like full blown overreaction in terms AT. 2xZis and 2x SU is way too much, unless all your opponent has are several panthers and a tiger. And again you missed the point of vehicles per pop. You get 2x firepower of SU76 in 1 vehicle (not vs Ostwind or Stug ofc), for less price and less pop.

Agree, lets move on.
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