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Fallshirms are OKW power creep

28 Jul 2021, 13:26 PM
#21
avatar of MassaDerek

Posts: 197

Please post the replay of the game where he beat you with falls, I would love to see it

Neither me or my friend bothered to save the replay since we were just done at that point
28 Jul 2021, 13:40 PM
#22
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3104 | Subs: 2


Neither me or my friend bothered to save the replay since we were just done at that point

If you did not play another match, the last game is always saved as "temp".
28 Jul 2021, 13:51 PM
#23
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3597 | Subs: 1


Dont have much access to vehicles up until the 12 min mark unless I rush for a centaur at the 10 minute mark if he's blobbing which is going to delay my Comet, or wait until the 12-14 min mark to get a Comet and be relatively safe against any PZ4 or Panther rush.
My only option at that point would be to make another Vickers or a Sniper or double sniper, but we all know thats a very risky play and manpower intensive with less payoff compared to OST/SOV sniper since the UKF sniper shoots slower.


I think this is were your logic fail. Build a Centaur if you need to. You can't simply say -Oh he is building something special that wreck my infantry but I don't want to give the correct answer because I want my comet.

This is Coh not CoComet, build a centaur if your opponent is playing with heavy infantry, support it with your own atgun, use your own infantry to focus his raketen so your centaur can go freely.
If you believe he is going to get sooner a Pz4 then build a Cromwell.

Aside from that yes Falls are incredibly stupidly designed and highly reward blobbing but OKW is all about blobbing so nothing special here.
28 Jul 2021, 14:10 PM
#24
avatar of MassaDerek

Posts: 197

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Jul 2021, 13:51 PMEsxile


I think this is were your logic fail. Build a Centaur if you need to. You can't simply say -Oh he is building something special that wreck my infantry but I don't want to give the correct answer because I want my comet.

This is Coh not CoComet, build a centaur if your opponent is playing with heavy infantry, support it with your own atgun, use your own infantry to focus his raketen so your centaur can go freely.
If you believe he is going to get sooner a Pz4 then build a Cromwell.

Aside from that yes Falls are incredibly stupidly designed and highly reward blobbing but OKW is all about blobbing so nothing special here.

I have noticed in my long playtime that a majority of axis players regardless of which faction they are currently playing rush for a P4, with early caches, no IS upgrades and holding atleast one fuel point, I can rush for a Comet and get it around the same time as a P4, because they expect a P4 to be a match-winning tank but suddenly get put against a Comet in which they are in a bad matchup, they wasted fuel on something that is going to lose against my Comet.
Doing this with a premade team has gotten me good results overall, averaging around a 79% winrate with my 3v3 premade team.

What is the big issue is the amount of infantry spam that occured in the match from a certain OKW player I was facing, he was putting too much pressure in the timespan he had before I got my comet, not that we were doing very well in this particular match anyway, but by the time I got my Comet( around 14 min mark which is a bit late for my strategy IMO) we had already been bled dry of VP points and we were all on edge that match so we just dropped IIRC.
28 Jul 2021, 14:10 PM
#25
avatar of MassaDerek

Posts: 197


If you did not play another match, the last game is always saved as "temp".

IK about that, but I've already played over 10 matches since then
28 Jul 2021, 14:18 PM
#26
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3597 | Subs: 1


I have noticed in my long playtime that a majority of axis players regardless of which faction they are currently playing rush for a P4, with early caches, no IS upgrades and holding atleast one fuel point, I can rush for a Comet and get it around the same time as a P4, because they expect a P4 to be a match-winning tank but suddenly get put against a Comet in which they are in a bad matchup, they wasted fuel on something that is going to lose against my Comet.
Doing this with a premade team has gotten me good results overall, averaging around a 79% winrate with my 3v3 premade team.

What is the big issue is the amount of infantry spam that occured in the match from a certain OKW player I was facing, he was putting too much pressure in the timespan he had before I got my comet, not that we were doing very well in this particular match anyway, but by the time I got my Comet( around 14 min mark which is a bit late for my strategy IMO) we had already been bled dry of VP points and we were all on edge that match so we just dropped IIRC.


As I said, you're not adapting your strategy. You got used to rush Comet because it was convenient vs Pz4 rush in hand of low level players. But Comet isn't the only answer to Pz4.
28 Jul 2021, 14:21 PM
#27
avatar of MassaDerek

Posts: 197

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Jul 2021, 14:18 PMEsxile


As I said, you're not adapting your strategy. You got used to rush Comet because it was convenient vs Pz4 rush in hand of low level players. But Comet isn't the only answer to Pz4.

Premade rank 470ish is low level?
28 Jul 2021, 14:27 PM
#28
avatar of jagd wölfe

Posts: 1660


LMG Obers only have one automatic weapon, which can be dropped and stolen.Atleast 50% of their overall DPS relies on the MG34, so they're not as bad as Fallshirms

You know that's a bad thing for FALLS, right? Obersoldaten have much more staying power exactly for that reason, and can pick up dropped weapons
28 Jul 2021, 14:35 PM
#29
avatar of Kieselberg

Posts: 268


Premade rank 470ish is low level?


Partially. It isnt high level either.

You did admit, that your team is a one trick pony and that your strat doesnt work, if the other side pressures you with infantry, while you dont properly invest in anti infantry, just to get a comet.

Adapting is the only option.

Besides: If the enemy manages to get 2-3 fallies, they lack in other areas. They are a huge mp investment and carry a huge upkeep.

My question is: What kind of stuff do you build for your mp, while the okw guy is investing in infantry?
28 Jul 2021, 14:43 PM
#30
avatar of MassaDerek

Posts: 197



Partially. It isnt high level either.

You did admit, that your team is a one trick pony and that your strat doesnt work, if the other side pressures you with infantry, while you dont properly invest in anti infantry, just to get a comet.

Adapting is the only option.

Besides: If the enemy manages to get 2-3 fallies, they lack in other areas. They are a huge mp investment and carry a huge upkeep.

My question is: What kind of stuff do you build for your mp, while the okw guy is investing in infantry?

IIRC I had 2 unupgraded(MP upkeep for IS is too high to have more), 1 MG, later on built a second because of his blob, AT gun, RRE, and a single commando I believe.
I use RRE to build 1-2 fuel caches from the second minute on because the longer FC are on the map the more fuel you will get for longer.
My two teammates actually just play how they like, I'm the "support" that has less field presence in order to afford FC and heavier armor earlier than most would expect, which catches them offguard and is usually how we win because they invest in the medium armor game and it doesn't pay off.
28 Jul 2021, 15:22 PM
#31
avatar of Oziligath

Posts: 192

AS i've read this topic I feel this come down to adaptation issue. Like as a "good" coh player my answer to fallshirm spam is either Light vehicule as some people pointed out, mg, or mines and if u end up facing 3 fall from one guy who seems to be around rank 500 i'd totally go for an AEC. Fall dont have snare and just are hard AI, fall arrives at 2 cp, wich means the okw has at this point normally, 1 sturm, 2/3 volks, the next 3 fall are a huge investement, which normally means no mg nor raketens. So go for LV's or as brit go for mg in trenches as you have more vision at vet1.

In the end, if u want a real feedback provide us with a replay and we'll be able to have a better sight of your problem.
28 Jul 2021, 15:42 PM
#32
avatar of Kieselberg

Posts: 268


IIRC I had 2 unupgraded(MP upkeep for IS is too high to have more), 1 MG, later on built a second because of his blob, AT gun, RRE, and a single commando I believe.
I use RRE to build 1-2 fuel caches from the second minute on because the longer FC are on the map the more fuel you will get for longer.
My two teammates actually just play how they like, I'm the "support" that has less field presence in order to afford FC and heavier armor earlier than most would expect, which catches them offguard and is usually how we win because they invest in the medium armor game and it doesn't pay off.


We can conclude, that you get outnumbered pretty hard. Even if the okw put his mp only in volks you would be in trouble.

Consindering the topic; Fallies arnt the problem or a powercreep here.


Sidenote: From my pov fallies arnt a viable option in higher rank games, since they doesnt have the durability they neeed in those meat grinders. They starve you mp and have only decent other commander abilites.
28 Jul 2021, 16:21 PM
#33
avatar of MassaDerek

Posts: 197



We can conclude, that you get outnumbered pretty hard. Even if the okw put his mp only in volks you would be in trouble.

Consindering the topic; Fallies arnt the problem or a powercreep here.


Sidenote: From my pov fallies arnt a viable option in higher rank games, since they doesnt have the durability they neeed in those meat grinders. They starve you mp and have only decent other commander abilites.

Obers are better in high-ranking games since they are good enough for that and aren't doctrinal so you can focus your doctrine choice on CAS, static arty etc.
Also about me being outnumbered, after I get a comet I usually immidiately unlock weapon racks and get commandos if I don't already have them, maybe even a second squad if I have got spare MP or go for a second comet/AVRE/Firefly/LM to keep the pressure on
28 Jul 2021, 16:23 PM
#34
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

I do think that falls were power crept,like just about everything else... their initial design was ambush pgrens with a snare and a better weapon. They needed to be used well or you would they were unsustainable (which is totally unreasonable for the late war Germany OKW was modeled for)
They were a fun unit, if a bit underappreciated.

A bit like commandos the camo went from how they are supposed to be used to a powerful optional aspect. Using Vetted falls from camo is so disgustingly powerful there is no counterplay due to the massive bonus and the raw power of the super FG42s that were introduced because losing models isn't supposed to be punishing anymore
28 Jul 2021, 16:42 PM
#35
avatar of MassaDerek

Posts: 197

I do think that falls were power crept,like just about everything else... their initial design was ambush pgrens with a snare and a better weapon. They needed to be used well or you would they were unsustainable (which is totally unreasonable for the late war Germany OKW was modeled for)
They were a fun unit, if a bit underappreciated.

A bit like commandos the camo went from how they are supposed to be used to a powerful optional aspect. Using Vetted falls from camo is so disgustingly powerful there is no counterplay due to the massive bonus and the raw power of the super FG42s that were introduced because losing models isn't supposed to be punishing anymore

Most players don't even use Fallshirms like ambush units since they can just blob them up and brute force them through allied units since they don't have that amount of firepower to stop 12 terminators with FG42s.
I saw a tightrope 1v1 replay where this OKW just build double kubel double Spio, then builds his PzHq on his fuel and proceeds to paradrop 2x Fallshirms on tightropes fuel in light cover completely camouflaged literally just waiting for half the match to ambush his UKF inf(he picked Special Weapons Regiment so he didn't even have any elite inf) so he was forced to spam double snipers.
Oh and the OKW also was stalling for a panther
28 Jul 2021, 17:05 PM
#36
avatar of EtherealDragon

Posts: 1890 | Subs: 1

Falls are fine but they just have the potential to be cheesey (constant camo ambushes on heavily cratered maps or brute force blobbing which is counterable but can feel OP if your anti blobbing skillz aren't great). It's just one of those things where you have to realize what your opponent is doing and be methodical in how you counter it and don't play into bad MP trades.
Pip
28 Jul 2021, 18:37 PM
#37
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1594


IIRC I had 2 unupgraded(MP upkeep for IS is too high to have more), 1 MG, later on built a second because of his blob, AT gun, RRE, and a single commando I believe.
I use RRE to build 1-2 fuel caches from the second minute on because the longer FC are on the map the more fuel you will get for longer.
My two teammates actually just play how they like, I'm the "support" that has less field presence in order to afford FC and heavier armor earlier than most would expect, which catches them offguard and is usually how we win because they invest in the medium armor game and it doesn't pay off.


This really does just seem to be more a case of your strategy being totally ineffective against someone /not/ just willing to let you stall for a comet, rather than anything specifically wrong with Fallschirmjager.

Two fuel caches early on is a lot of wasted MP that you could instead have used for IS, or even more Commandos armed with Brens... or instead of rushing the comet get yourself a Valentine or Centaur to mulch his absurd investment in infantry.

How many Volks did your opponent have alongside his 2-3 fallschirmjager?
28 Jul 2021, 19:19 PM
#38
avatar of MassaDerek

Posts: 197

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Jul 2021, 18:37 PMPip


This really does just seem to be more a case of your strategy being totally ineffective against someone /not/ just willing to let you stall for a comet, rather than anything specifically wrong with Fallschirmjager.

Two fuel caches early on is a lot of wasted MP that you could instead have used for IS, or even more Commandos armed with Brens... or instead of rushing the comet get yourself a Valentine or Centaur to mulch his absurd investment in infantry.

How many Volks did your opponent have alongside his 2-3 fallschirmjager?


If my teammates that were playing normally in this particular match could hold them off to some extent and hold 1-2 VPs this could very well have worked in this particular case, but it didn't for a lot of reasons including that absurd 5 second time-to-drop smoke pots ability that he used each and every single time he saw my MG.
I'm sure he had atleast 2 Volks, also a MG covering the north side of Winnekendonk in the building next to the munitions point.
Maybe I should've gotten a sniper or double, but I fear of just not paying attetion for a single second costing me 360MP.
28 Jul 2021, 19:23 PM
#39
avatar of Geblobt

Posts: 213

I dont like the design of Falls. They have a dumb weapon profile, bad effective HP+ only 4 models and are combined with valiant assault in a commander . They shouldnt work like a brainless blob unit, which OKW has already stock in even better.

I wish they would be reworked into a unit like Storms/Commandos. 5 Man, slightly weaker ambush bonus, better stealth, short range weapon (mp40) with the opportunity to upgrade either 2/5 FG42 (better midrange dmg compared to mp40, still bad long range dmg) or 2 shrecks.
28 Jul 2021, 19:27 PM
#40
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6

LMG Obers only have one automatic weapon [...] Atleast 50% of their overall DPS relies on the MG34, so they're not as bad as Fallshirms with an entire squad of non droppable FG42s that are not hindered as much by any squadmate dying.


Ironically you couldn't be more wrong, because you reversed the DPS concentration advantage.

Falls are worse off here because they lose 25% of their DPS with each model drop when fully upgraded. So if they are down to 2 or 1 models the squad has only 50% or 25% of their total DPS left. Meanwhile Obers, with most of their DPS concentrated in one weapon that is transferable, always keep at least ~57% of their (max range) DPS down to the last model. Even if both squads drop only 1 model, Falls lose 25% of their DPS while Obers lose only 15%. Obers DPS retention is better.
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